Has D&D become too...D&Dish?

[mmadsen]

Players can't go around buying magic items, they are too rare and valuable. Players can sell magic items, but only get so much because "they aren't worth it." That broke a lot of people's ability to believe a setting.

Why should it break suspension of disbelief that a quasi-medieval economy would have inefficiencies in the market for very, very expensive goods with very, very specific uses, which are very, very expensive to identify/verify?

 

[SSquirrel]

Sort of. Check out the middle levels.

*snip*

Which is weird. For a while the only ones better off than the wizard are druids and rogues.

As I said, a friend looked up those tables for me. From the way you had worded it sounded like the eventually outpacing everyone was towards the end, not middle. My only guess is a way to bribe people to play mages, kinda like the bribing of people for clerics in 3E. You'll have more fighters than anyone esle probably, so make them harder to level. Make wizard easy...and ofcourse, the very flexible thief should just be cheap b/c everyone likes it and it can fill many holes. Adjustable thief skills were a very nice creation tho. As we've already seen, I'm a big fan of things making sense.

 

[Starman]

Why should it break suspension of disbelief that a quasi-medieval economy would have inefficiencies in the market for very, very expensive goods with very, very specific uses, which are very, very expensive to identify/verify?

You don't see the discrepancy in allowing characters to sell magic items with no problems, but never being able to buy any?

 

[wingsandsword]

Why should it break suspension of disbelief that a quasi-medieval economy would have inefficiencies in the market for very, very expensive goods with very, very specific uses, which are very, very expensive to identify/verify?

Very specific uses? The use of a +5 Vorpal Longsword is the same use as a regular Longsword, just much moreso. A Potion of Cure Moderate Wounds or Remove Disease is quite clear in it's use. A Bag of Holding or Immovable Rod is also quite clear in what it does. An Everburning Torch is usable to all as well. There are some magic items that are only usable to a small handful of people, like wands, but a +1 adamantine dagger is useful to just about anybody (even if as a tool instead of a weapon, it is incredibly sharp and durable after all).

The level of technology and civilization in D&D is much closer to the renaissance than medieval anyway (unless your campaign doesn't have things like plate mail), and by then there was merchant companies (chartered trading companies by the mid 1500's easily), the Knights Templar had early banking across all of Europe and much of the Middle East by the 1300's, and they understood the concepts of interest and stock trading quite well. It certainly wasn't Wall Street, but it wasn't all bartering with chickens and cows either.

A large and respected religious order, or a wealthy company started by a powerful noble with a royal charter could hire some novice wizards to Identify magic items, put them in sealed containers labelled with what they are, the seal vouching for what they are and do, and begin to trade in them. They'd be sold to powerful nobles, other religious orders, the crowns of various kingdoms, wealthy mercenary companies, and of course adventurers. Adventurers aren't the only people running around with lots of money, they are just the ones the story tends to focus on.

 

[rounser]

B/c a world where magic exists but they haven't taken advantage of it to have say....a decanter of endless water helping to irrigate dry lands or continual light to keep teh streets safe at night, etc etc. just doesn't make SENSE! This is a matter of internal consistency.

As a one-off hook for an adventure (i.e. an enterprising guild or mage is setting up continual light streetlamps, a druid trying to reclaim a desert with his decanter) - that is, a mcguffin - fine. As an integrated part of society - nuh uh. There's just too much at stake to make these things more than a novelty to the average peasant, IMO. What's at stake is contrast; if the mundane becomes magical, then the magic becomes mundane.

And IMO, using magic in an industrial way always comes at a price. Those undead make great reapers during harvest, until a necromancer cult got involved and used them to destroy the town, or the locals became infected with some undead rot or something. That decanter was very useful for years, but one day water elementals began coming out of it and destroyed all the reclaimed woodland. Residual magic from constant use of those streetlamps opened a gate to the positive material plane etc. This may seem unsporting, but you're doing this to NPCs, so you don't have to play fair when they try to apply magic to industry. If the PCs try it, well, they can try and change the world if they like, that's part of what they're there for.

 

[ruleslawyer]

As I said, a friend looked up those tables for me. From the way you had worded it sounded like the eventually outpacing everyone was towards the end, not middle. My only guess is a way to bribe people to play mages, kinda like the bribing of people for clerics in 3E. You'll have more fighters than anyone esle probably, so make them harder to level.

Except, of course, that wizards start getting XP breaks just when they're outpacing the other party members in key skills like damage output, mobility, and bypassing obstacles. I never liked the 7th/8th-level break.

Also, keep in mind that in 1e parties using anything other than roll 3d6 six times, fighters weren't quite so attractive. I'd take a ranger every time. Fighters were the necessary response to the usually not-so-high stat bonuses featured in 1e AD&D; the only survivable class if you had mediocre stats.

The really whacked-out class, though, is the druid. There's a great article in Dragon 119 that talks about how much deadlier the druid is than the cleric, and then starts figuring in animal companions. I ran one after reading that just as an experiment in powergaming.

 

[Starman]

And IMO, using magic in an industrial way always comes at a price. Those undead make great reapers during harvest, until a necromancer cult got involved and used them to destroy the town, or the locals became infected with some undead rot or something. That decanter was very useful for years, but one day water elementals began coming out of it and destroyed all the reclaimed woodland. Residual magic from constant use of those streetlamps opened a gate to the positive material plane etc. This may seem unsporting, but you're doing this to NPCs, so you don't have to play fair when they try to apply magic to industry. If the PCs try it, well, they can try and change the world if they like, that's part of what they're there for.

Those sound like some great adventure hooks to me.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Because magic items ARE a valuable commodity, someone is going to want to make a dime off them somewhere. It's human nature.

I give you the Superman paradox: You, Mr. Kent, have the powers of Superman. You can choose to retain those powers for yourself, doing what good you can when you can do it, or you can choose to share those powers with everyone. In other words, one Superman who decides how those powers are used (you) or a world of Supermen where anyone can use those powers how they wish. What do you choose?

The people spoke. The designers listened. Now go houserule to your heart's content, but the game was made this way b/c that was the perception of what the gaming community WANTED.

Yeah, funny thing about people, though. They keep speaking. This edition is not "for all time" and the next might be radically different. Also, statistically, a representative sample does not always give proper representation. The people WotC spoke to might not represent the views of the majority.

RC

 

[Raven Crowking]

You don't see the discrepancy in allowing characters to sell magic items with no problems, but never being able to buy any?

If the magic items are uncovered from lost civilizations by the characters, they can sell them because they have an excess and there is a market demand. However, in 1e, where creation is difficult, there is a general market demand but not an excess of product.

As the farmer only sells produce beyond what he and his family need, the average guy with a magic sword doesn't have a spare in his closet to sell.

RC

 

[Raven Crowking]

And IMO, using magic in an industrial way always comes at a price. Those undead make great reapers during harvest, until a necromancer cult got involved and used them to destroy the town, or the locals became infected with some undead rot or something. That decanter was very useful for years, but one day water elementals began coming out of it and destroyed all the reclaimed woodland. Residual magic from constant use of those streetlamps opened a gate to the positive material plane etc. This may seem unsporting, but you're doing this to NPCs, so you don't have to play fair when they try to apply magic to industry. If the PCs try it, well, they can try and change the world if they like, that's part of what they're there for.

I've heard that there's a much higher rate of cancer in areas with continual light street lamps. It's all statistics, and there's been no causitive agent discovered yet, but I wouldn't raise my kids near those things.