Has Grapple been fixed?

[Sir Robilar]

I know the Pathfinder Grapple Rules (combat maneuvers) so this is not a question about how they work.

I am interested to know whether you think that the rules for Grappling have been "fixed", whatever that may mean to you. Doesn´t matter if your opinion is based on actual play experience or not.


Cheers,
Rob

 

[billd91]

I think they're good enough. They're reasonably easy and faster to use. They wouldn't stand up to a Pro-wrestling RPG's needs, but I think they work well enough for a fantasy game.

 

[Tovec]

I agree, they're not perfect but they're definitely easier to use than regular 3.5 rules and they certainly speed things up a lot.
Also keeping in mind Grapple is merely holding someone in a square and PIN is godly power.

The only issue I see and this is probably due to an imbalance in my game, is that it is very difficult to grapple some people/classes and incredibly easy to grapple others. Again, I blame this on my game and I hope making things a little more balanced in my next game will fix it.

But yes, to answer the original question, they "fixed grapple".

 

[frankthedm]

Definitely fixed.

• No more Sharing spaces
• No more sneak attacking those in grapple.
• Monsters can launch full attacks if they are grappled by others.
• Only two handed weapons are too big to use in a grapple.
• Monster can release victim at the start of the round to launch a full attack.

 

[cyderak]

Grappling in Pathfinder is easier than ever.(Not that it was hard before)

You roll your CMB(Combat maneuver Bonus)

If you beat your opponents CMD(Combat Maneuver Defense) then you succeed. Its not opposed anymore.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

My players and my NPCs are doing grapples now, which they weren't under 3.X, so I would have to say that yes, they have been fixed.

Mind you, the merrows grappling characters who could not breathe under water almost killed PCs both times that I ran the encounter.... Which was also where the PCs learned that the paladin's Smite has also changed for the better.

The Auld Grump

 

[Friend of the Dork]

Streamlined grappling rules was one of the rule changes that PF is applauded for, but frankly I'm not that impressed. I actually thought the 3.5 grappling rules were pretty good.

We also used grappling whenever it was appropriate, but seldom as a typical tactic. Which is exaxtly what I think grappling should be for.

The only real problem was the evil circle of AoOs that theoretically could ocurr:

A grapples B and provokes an AoO, B uses it to make his own grapple attempt which also causes an AoO... you see where this is leading? Technically all you needed was to be armed (say with a dagger or IUS feat).

Still fairly easy to fix.

Grapple today removes the touch attack and replaces it with a single test pitted against the CMD (which is essentially as if the defender took 10 on his test), also the dex test is pretty much calculated into the CMD.

Result is that you remove a test (quicked and easier) at the cost of making it generally harder to grapple some people. For example, a 10th level warrior with str and dex 14 will have CMD 24 which a 1st level fighter (14 str) can't succeed against. In 3.5 the 1st level warrior would first have to hit AC 12 (fairly good chance) and then win an opposed test against the warrior's BaB+str bonus (+12). Difficult, but not impossible. And of course that's not counting any ring of deflection or other defensive items that could be used.

As for using swords in grapple.. I don't really care for it. Light weapons only made sense. Also now AFAIK nothing prevents you from making a full attack against the one grappling you, except the -2 penalty. Armor spikes has no advantage apart from being a weapon that can be used in grapple (at the same -2) without being held.

Not losing dex to ac is ok, and pinning still allows sneak attacks.

The +4 bonus to grapple CM for the "controller" is kinda weird too, as it works only on the test each round to maintain the grapple, and does not influence the defender's test to escape/take control of grapple in any way.

And as far as I can tell the rules do not allow full attack to be used when making a grapple CM. This is unlike Trip and Sunder, but not the other CMs.

Improved Grapple is weird, since it does not apply when the defender tries to get escape from grapple, only when he tries to grapple you instead.

Also the size bonuses has dropper considerably. Now it's tricky for a hill giant to grapple a halfling (only a net 2 difference), while halflings can trip humans without much penalty (dex bonus cancels out str penalty). I must admit I prefer the old +/- 4 difference between large and huge. Now BaB matters alot more.

 

[pawsplay]

3.5 rules were pretty good, but Pathfinder's are better. And Pathfinder's rules are much easier and clearer.

 

[Dark Mistress]

As others have said, they are much easy to follow and do. So if you consider that fixed then yes they fixed them.

 

[Job]

The PF grapple rules seem to be a bit easier to follow than D&D3.5, and more logical in some ways, so yes, they're improved somewhat.

You should also be aware that, IMO, the PF grapple rules are still fairly complicated and could use a bit more streamlining by Paizo. To give you an idea of their complexity, take a look at the flowcharts that are linked within the "Grapple" heading on the PFSRD website (here is a link)

I developed a script for a computerized DM tool that I use to help run my PF game, and this script ended up requiring well over a thousand lines of code to handle all of the options... It was quite a challenge.

J.