Has WotC hit its stride?

[S'mon]

Yes, but Warlocks in particular were neigh incapable of doing anything useful in heroic tier without decent implements, which PHB1 didn't manage to provide in general. Other classes may lose just as much, but they were already able to fill their roles for the most part. There are however a number of 'glue' type items in both AVs that are quite desirable to have in the game, like songbows for instance.

I just checked Compendium, Songbows are apparently Bard items from AV2. I don't use AV2 IMCs, yet somehow the Bard PCs are able to function.

Is this all just some min-max powergamery thing? Or are certain classes genuinely dependent on particular magic items? If so, please explain how. Maybe use the Songbows as an example.

 

[OnlineDM]

A bard could function in several ways without a songbow:

- Using a songblade instead of a songbow, avoiding ranged weapon powers
- Using only weapon powers, no implement powers
- Being a skald and taking the powers focused on melee basic attacks
- Collect both bows and wands

If you have a bard who wants to use both the ranged weapon bard powers as well as bard implement powers, they'll have to either give up any enhancement bonus for one or the other, or they'll have to collect both magical bows and magical implements (wands, most likely) and deal with switching between them.

It can be done, but it's messier than using a songbow.

Personally, my own bard character uses a songblade; he's mostly melee, and his ranged powers are implement powers for which he can use the blade as an implement. I just skip the ranged weapon bard powers.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

A bard could function in several ways without a songbow:

- Using a songblade instead of a songbow, avoiding ranged weapon powers
- Using only weapon powers, no implement powers
- Being a skald and taking the powers focused on melee basic attacks
- Collect both bows and wands

If you have a bard who wants to use both the ranged weapon bard powers as well as bard implement powers, they'll have to either give up any enhancement bonus for one or the other, or they'll have to collect both magical bows and magical implements (wands, most likely) and deal with switching between them.

It can be done, but it's messier than using a songbow.

Personally, my own bard character uses a songblade; he's mostly melee, and his ranged powers are implement powers for which he can use the blade as an implement. I just skip the ranged weapon bard powers.

Which is exactly what I mean by 'glue' items, ones that allow characters (usually weapon+implement power ones) to avoid needing to double up or avoid half of their powers. The Crusader's Mace is another example of such an item, and there are others. Essentials cleanup of implements DID remove the need for dual implement ones like Star of Corellon though, which was good. There are other types of items that can also fall into the similar 'build enabling' category, like the swords you can split into two, most polearms, battle harness, etc. Clearly not every single one of these items is so vital it HAS to be reprinted, but quite a few of them will make the difference between a marginal or dysfunctional build and one that works.

As for Keterys' objection. Oh heck! Seriously, there are always going to be builds that will rely on some sort of item at some point to make them really click. You're really going to tell off the player that happens to use one of those builds? Just give them a way to get the item they need. It could be inconvenient for the character, but so it goes. Again, there are a lot of items that are at least desirable, if not outright enabling, that really should be in the game, and if MME is effectively the new go-to magic item book then it is going to need to either reprint some of these or come up with equivalents.

 

[keterys]

You can do ranged weapon powers with a light blade (via songblade or just proficiency). Or not use them - not like they didn't show up in a later book anyways. Or put a little more effort into it and get the ability to use any bow or crossbow as an implement.

I'm really not sure which items folks would consider "glue"? Like, do claw gloves count, but gouges don't? If you exclude item books, particularly AV, you lower the potential optimization of the game... pretty much across the board. But I'm not sure what's in AV that the game couldn't do without.

I'm pretty sure the game could have done without superior weapons and armor, personally

 

[SoulsFury]

Really? I haven't heard anything good about MME.

Then you didn't read the post directly above yours...

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

You can do ranged weapon powers with a light blade (via songblade or just proficiency). Or not use them - not like they didn't show up in a later book anyways. Or put a little more effort into it and get the ability to use any bow or crossbow as an implement.

I'm really not sure which items folks would consider "glue"? Like, do claw gloves count, but gouges don't? If you exclude item books, particularly AV, you lower the potential optimization of the game... pretty much across the board. But I'm not sure what's in AV that the game couldn't do without.

I'm pretty sure the game could have done without superior weapons and armor, personally

Yes, yes, someone can spend 3 hours studying feats and dope out a way to perhaps use a bow as an implement (frankly I don't know how to do that aside from MC Cleric, worship Sehanine, and take another feat, which clearly is ridiculously elaborate in my book vs just having songbows in the game).

Of course we COULD argue endlessly about which items are most needed and just what needed is. Equally clearly the designers of the game felt that certain types of items would add substantially to the game, and it pretty clearly makes sense to keep at least some of those items present, hence the reprinting.

Now, you could simply dream up even more endless variations of these items, various iconic items that have already appeared, etc. It just seems silly when you can just reprint and/or revise an existing item now and then.

Again, I think this is a sign of the change in philosophy that has happened with 4e WRT printed material. No longer does WotC apparently feel it necessary to consider something once published as cast in stone forever.

 

[blalien]

Really? I haven't heard anything good about MME.

MME is fantastic. It's not just a list of magic items, it makes magic items fun again.

 

[Votan]

Again, I think this is a sign of the change in philosophy that has happened with 4e WRT printed material. No longer does WotC apparently feel it necessary to consider something once published as cast in stone forever.

True, but this is definitely a mixed blessing. You are trading system evolution for complexity and harmonization issues between people who own different sub-sets of the rules.

 

[Argyle King]

I'm not sure how I feel. It does seem as though more thought is being put into some of the products. It also seems as though a lot of the pro-4E crowd is happy with the newer products.

However, on the flip side of that and from a personal standpoint, I still don't have any motivation to spend more money on the game. This has nothing to do with how I feel about the quality of the new products, but, instead, I believe it's a symptom I've been infected with by what I felt was the quality of the things which came before. That is to say that - yeah, the new stuff might look cool, but I'm still somewhat skeptical toward 4E in general due to previous experiences.

All things considered, I suppose I'm on the fence. Half of the things being done, I like. The other half of the things being done further embrace aspects of the system which I didn't care for. I think for a lot of people it could be said that WoTC has hit its stride, but I also feel there is a significant minority of the D&D community for whom it may be too late for 4E to win them back. Me personally? I still do play and enjoy the campaigns I play in as a player, and I still enjoy running the game which I currently run, but -as said- I am not motivated to spend more money on the product. I'm not entirely sure what that means in the grand scheme of things, but that's my current viewpoint.

 

[Incenjucar]

It takes some pretty strong blinders to call it a terrible value because a couple pages worth of stuff isn't valuable.

If you feel strongly enough about the book to resort to insulting everyone who disagrees with you on that point, you should maybe see the thread about it for more detailed critiques, criticisms, and perspectives.

--

Anyway, back to the actual topic at hand:

While I certainly enjoyed the Heroes of the Feywild, and most notably DDI content has vastly improved from that digital dark age it was going through, I don't think we can assume there is an actual pattern and path going here. I and I'm sure others thought they were hitting their stride with Dark Sun, and then things went south for awhile. In all likelihood, there will continue to be better books and worse books, good times and bad, and neither everlasting gloom nor eternal happiness. Hopefully the average of that will improve, but the Legend and Lore articles aren't exactly receiving universal praise, and Monte and Mearls aren't likely to be talking about things so long just to muse. Even if that goes bad (which it might not!), however, that doesn't mean that it won't immediately be followed by something fantastic, which might be followed by several medicore books, which may be followed by two straight years of awesome, and then OH GOD WHY DID THEY PRINT THAT and so on.