D&D 4E Hasbro, Greyhawk, and 4E speculation

[Maggan]

Knowledge of such an offer would be circulated among small, elite circles. Ones with deep pockets.

Who evidently promptly spreads the secret and arcane knowledge on the internet?

D&D might be up for sale, I don't know, but I'll offer up an exclusive look at how this rumour might have started:

---------

Cast yourself back in time, to GenCon 2001. D&D 3e and d20 has taken the RPG world by apparent storm, and some big shot WotC person is sipping his coffee while waiting for his next event to start. He is tired and irritated, because his level 16 drow fighter/wizard just bought the farm in a dungeon run by Fast Forward. It all seemed so promising ...

A gamer walks up to him.

Gamer: "Hey, you're Mr Hot Shot from WotC! You're ruining D&D! If I was in charge, I would do a much better job than you guys! You suck!"

Hot Shot (tongue in cheek): "Well, pony of 30 million dollars, and you might get the chance! Hey, I gotta go, there's a panel I'm supposed to be in! See ya!"

Later the same day. Our intrepid gamer talks to his friend.

Gamer: "Hey, I heard that they're shopping D&D around. The price they're asking is 30 million dollars!"

Gamer's friend: "Cool, that'll be something to tell my FLGS owner when I get back. And my online buddies!"

-------------

Hmmmmm ... seems realistic to me.

Cheers!

/M

 

[Henry]

...but that was WotC's acquisition of TSR. WotC seemed like a very healthy, profitable company when it was sold to Hasbro (and it was, and still seems to be).

My mistake; I misread that. As for Hasbro's acquisition of WotC (different circumstances), I'll agree there wasn't a lot of rumor about it beforehand. However, it was because of the health of WotC that this purchase took place, not any perceived illnesses. According to Peter Adkison, he and his stockholders couldn't let that offer go in good conscience.

I believe Charles though, when he says that D&D is a LOT bigger and healthier than people give it credit for.

 

[sirkillian]

There was a thread sometime back mentioning that the value of the Dungeons and Dragons line was perhaps $30 million ot $35 million, and a poster said that he heard a rumor that Hasbro was looking for a buyer. Adkison and a few backers might have sufficient resources to buy either the D&D line or WotC.

The speculation here is very polite, and thoughtful. So, let's maintain this tone.

In the last three years, the rumor of Hasbro/WotC seeling off D&D has been intersting. I have heard many different companies named from AEG to White Wolf. The figure of 30 million seems right to me but is way to much for most companies to buy. Big business is all about selling and rebuying brands.

Speculation is a great thing, we can all think about this until the cows come home but until the ink is dry, D&D is at Wizards.

 

[Kanegrundar]

This has been a really good thread. While I'm not sure about a few of the things bandied around so far, it does give me something to think about. Would it be bad for D&D to get sold? Depends on who bought it. For now, though, I'm perfectly happy to sit and wait and continue to pick up the books that come that interest me until there are no books left to buy, which doesn't look to be anytime soon.

Kane

 

[JVisgaitis]

One more thing I want to bring up and this may put this into perspective. Wizards of the Coast was purchased by Hasbro for $325 million dollars. I work for Network Solutions and I'm not sure if you are aware, but Network Solutions is the first and one of the largest domain Registrars. We have more then 6.5 million domain names registered with us and almost all of the Fortune 500 companies are our clients (and Wizards of the Coast is also a client of ours). Anyway, we were sold for $100 million from Verisign. I don't know what Wizards pulls in per year, but it must have been pretty significant considering the price difference in value between Network Solutions (which contributes to a huge portion of the internet infrastructure) and Wizards of the Coast (which produces D&D). Just something to chew on.

 

[Staffan]

One more thing I want to bring up and this may put this into perspective. Wizards of the Coast was purchased by Hasbro for $325 million dollars. I work for Network Solutions [...] Anyway, we were sold for $100 million from Verisign. I don't know what Wizards pulls in per year, but it must have been pretty significant considering the price difference in value between Network Solutions (which contributes to a huge portion of the internet infrastructure) and Wizards of the Coast (which produces D&D). Just something to chew on.

Not to denigrate the value of WOTC, but remember that Hasbro bought WOTC at the height of the Pokemon craze, and WOTC was the company making the CCG. I'd wager that a substantial amount of those $325M were for Pokemon.

 

[Henry]

Not to denigrate the value of WOTC, but remember that Hasbro bought WOTC at the height of the Pokemon craze, and WOTC was the company making the CCG. I'd wager that a substantial amount of those $325M were for Pokemon.

It's not a far-fetched assumption to believe the D&D brand is responsible for at least 100 million of that, though. Plus, we never did find out how much TSR was acquired for. It may be safe to say that WotC built the brand's value back up after buying it from TSR, because they also had to sort out all manner of arcane licensings, buy out various people who had esoteric stakes in things, and straighten out all of its failed debt management. I'm guessing it was worth FAR more in 2000 than it was in 1996.

 

[William Ronald]

It's not a far-fetched assumption to believe the D&D brand is responsible for at least 100 million of that, though. Plus, we never did find out how much TSR was acquired for. It may be safe to say that WotC built the brand's value back up after buying it from TSR, because they also had to sort out all manner of arcane licensings, buy out various people who had esoteric stakes in things, and straighten out all of its failed debt management. I'm guessing it was worth FAR more in 2000 than it was in 1996.

I think that this is correct, in that WotC got rid of several losses, and released several products for the D&D line. Add in the value of D&D related products (novels, et centera) and the value of the former TSR rises.

 

[Henry]

I think that this is correct, in that WotC got rid of several losses, and released several products for the D&D line. Add in the value of D&D related products (novels, et centera) and the value of the former TSR rises.

Quick clipping from March 2000 from the DND-L mail list:

...I read the details of the Random House distribution agreement; an agreement that TSR had used to support a failing business and hide the fact that TSR was rotten at the core. I read the entangling bank agreements that divided the copyright interests of the company as security against default, and realized that the desperate arrangements made to shore up the company's poor financial picture had so contaminated those rights that it might not be possible to extract Dungeons & Dragons from the clutches of lawyers and bankers and courts for years upon end. I read the severance agreements between the company and departed executives which paid them extraordinary sums for their silence. I noted the clauses, provisions, amendments and agreements that were piling up more debt by the hour in the form of interest charges, fees and penalties. I realized that the money paid in good faith by publishers and attendees for GenCon booths and entrance fees had been squandered and that the show itself could not be funded. I discovered that the cost of the products that company was making in many cases exceeded the price the company was receiving for selling those products. I toured a warehouse packed from floor to 50 foot ceiling with products valued as though they would soon be sold to a distributor with production stamps stretching back to the late 1980s. I was 10 pages in to a thick green bar report of inventory, calculating the true value of the material in that warehouse when I realized that my last 100 entries had all been "$0"'s.

They were in some Baaaad shape back then.

 

[William Ronald]

Henry, the quote seemed familair, so I did a Google search. Why TSR failed?, an acount originally posted on the DND list serve, tells of a story of a business that failed to listen to its customers. When I first read it, I was shocked at how bad things were at TSR. I think WotC is in much better shape, in large part because it listens to its customers. I imagine that is one of the reasons why WotC actually communicates with the gaming public, as opposed to TSR's silence on many matters.


Eric Arondson: It might be possible for the various Living Greyhawk Triads to summarize the most important events in their regions, possibly send in some maps, and have WotC work with it. It would be an impressive project, requiring a lot of work. Of course, WotC could take just some of the stuff, and publish a new baseline book. (At worst, WotC could use the bare bones of what has gone on, and advance the calendar a few years. As long as this could be done in a way that does not negatively impact player characters, it might be possible to reconcile some of the changes.)