Haste/Slow?

[Nail]

If some one then in the desciption of a spell breaks this rule the ease of play of d20 goes out the window.

Ease of play?

Read the text:
"Haste dispels and counters slow."

How is this difficult?

Surely this is even less difficult than determining the effects of a Dispel Magic!

 

[Felonious Ntent]

1)effects overlaping not stacking
2)same as need x on a d20 to hit.
both =ease of play.
Have the effects of a spell change #1 muddies water unesecarliy and breaks spirit of d20 and ease of play.

Would be same as having in text of a monster in order to hit it pc must role under a certain number like the 1e way of things. Easily done but breaks spirit of d20 and ease of play.

Combat is done a certain way and the description in a monster shoudln't change that. To me this holds true for spells as well.

 

[Wonko the Sane]

I'm okay with slow countering haste and vice versa...the thing I hate about the RAW is that a hasted individual subjected to a slow spell receives no saving throw vs. the slow spell, whereas if he weren't hasted, he would receive a save. I allow the save - if failed, the haste effect is countered as per normal. If the save is made, too bad, they're still hasted.

 

[Sithobi1]

If an effect is dispelled, it is gone. It no longer exists, so there is nothing there to overlap with when you cast the same spell again.

 

[KarinsDad]

I'm okay with slow countering haste and vice versa...the thing I hate about the RAW is that a hasted individual subjected to a slow spell receives no saving throw vs. the slow spell, whereas if he weren't hasted, he would receive a save. I allow the save - if failed, the haste effect is countered as per normal. If the save is made, too bad, they're still hasted.

Wow! You gave me an epiphany.

This is a very interesting point.

The question is, can this rule of yours be considered RAW?

I think so.

"Specific Exceptions: Some spells specifically counter each other, especially when they have diametrically opposed effects."

"Once you know which creatures (or objects or areas) are affected, and whether those creatures have made successful saving throws (if any were allowed), you can apply whatever results a spell entails."

"Slow
Targets: One creature/level, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes
Slow counters and dispels haste."

Part of what a Slow spell entails is countering and dispelling Haste. But, how can the effect of the Slow spell go into effect AT ALL if the character makes his save, or the attacker fails the Spell Resistance roll?

"Slow counters and dispels haste" is a rule WITHIN the spell description. Hence, it does NOT take effect unless the spell takes effect. The "Specific Exceptions" rule does not trump because it merely states what will happen with certain spell combinations, it does NOT state WHEN that will occur.

And, although the effect is the same as counterspelling or dispelling, the rules for this are totally different. You do not need a readied action. You do not need to roll dice. Hence, claiming that it is automatically successful is not stated anywhere in RAW. Just because normal counters and dispels work this way does not mean that RAW explicitly states that "Specific Exceptions" work this way.


"Usually a harmful spell allows a target to make a saving throw to avoid some or all of the effect. The Saving Throw entry in a spell description defines which type of saving throw the spell allows and describes how saving throws against the spell work.

Negates: The spell has no effect on a subject that makes a successful saving throw."


No effect. Including dispelling his Haste.


"Spell resistance is a special defensive ability. If your spell is being resisted by a creature with spell resistance, you must make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) at least equal to the creature’s spell resistance for the spell to affect that creature."

And, the counter position that the Slow is targeting the Haste and not the creature does not work since the Target of Slow is a creature, NOT a spell.


All of these years, most of us have been playing it as an auto-dispel when in reality, RAW does not state that at all. RAW, if read carefully, states the opposite.

And, the nice part of this is that the target can voluntarily give up his saving throw and/or his spell resistance in the opposite case: he is Slowed and his ally wants to Haste him to remove it.


However to be fair, I must point out that the 3E FAQ states:

"Two opposite spells simply negate each other. No dispel check is required, no saving throw is allowed, and spell resistance does not apply."

So, we also know what designer intent here was. Unfortunately, they did not actually write it that way in the PHB, so people should feel free to play it that way and convince their DMs that this is the way it should be played: According to RAW.

 

[Creat]

Ease of play?

Read the text:
"Haste dispels and counters slow."

How is this difficult?

I can very well see his point. We all know light/daylight and (deeper) darkness, and we do know they supress the other spell for their own duration (so a daylight cast on a deeper darkness lets the surrounding light conditions light the area) and don't dispell them. Now we all know haste and slow, and I actually didn't know that slow and haste effectively dispell each other without reading the spells description, and I actually haven't seen slow used or used it myself in the game at all (yet). So without looking it up I would've said that they don't dispell each other but simple negate each other until one of the durations is over.

Now of course I'd have them dispell each other because that's what the spell description says, but I still understand his point of view.