D&D 4E Hate or aggro rules in 4e

[KarinsDad]

First off, a minor correction: IGG doesn't improve AC. It gives enemies you threaten a -4 penalty on attacks against your allies. While close to the same thing, they're not identical and it can be important sometimes.

Such as?

 

[blargney the second]

Thicket of Blades can be used with IGG, regardless of melee weapon.

Huh? No it can't. They're both stances, and you can only have one stance active at a time.

Such as?

Like I said, it was a minor correction. Two examples I can think of offhand that have come up in our games:
1) Aid another. Attack vs AC 10; at low levels that -4 counts.
2) Sapphire Nightmare Blade. Concentration check vs AC to make them flatfooted. Their AC doesn't increase, so the Concentration check is easier.
-blarg

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

I agree with you that AoOs are needed (due to the mechanics of a circular initiative system). But, I think because of metagaming like this (i.e. the Fighter runs past so that the Rogue can flank without provoking), opponents should get more than a single AoO.

"Quick, distract the giant. I have a cunning plan!"

 

[KarinsDad]

Huh? No it can't. They're both stances, and you can only have one stance active at a time.

Sorry. Our Warblade took Master of Nine which is what allowed him to use two stances. So, it is possible to combine them. I just forgot that he got Dual Stance from his PrC. The synergies can add up pretty quick. Stance Mastery can also do this and for much longer, but taking the PrC is a lot quicker.

Like I said, it was a minor correction. Two examples I can think of offhand that have come up in our games:
1) Aid another. Attack vs AC 10; at low levels that -4 counts.
2) Sapphire Nightmare Blade. Concentration check vs AC to make them flatfooted. Their AC doesn't increase, so the Concentration check is easier.

1) This is not quite correct. If an NPC attacker tried to Aid Another a buddy of his against your IGG protected PC allies, he would not be attacking your ally hence he would not be getting a -4 penalty on an attack roll against your ally. He would get a 0 modifier on an attack roll to assist his ally. It is an attack roll, but he is not using it against your ally (or your ally's AC or anything). He is using it to help his ally. It is not called out in Aid Another as an attack against an enemy, it is explicitly called out (multiple times) as helping a friend (or "help a friend attack" or "aid a friend"). It is never called out as attacking an enemy or an attack roll against an enemy in Aid Another.

Examples of where he would explicitly be using it against an enemy and it is better than an AC bonus is Disarm or Sunder (since they use opposed attacks). But, not Aid Another or Grapple or Trip. Aid Another because it is not an attack against the opponent, and Grapple/Trip because it is against his touch AC.

2) You are correct for this. An AC boost would affect both rolls whereas a penalty only affects one roll. However, the chances of an NPC attacking with Sapphire Nightmare Blade while a PC is defending with Iron Guard's Glare (or vice versa) is so slim as to make this one mostly irrelevant. Not nearly as relevant as Disarm or Sunder (which any attacker might use) versus IGG.

 

[KarinsDad]

"Quick, distract the giant. I have a cunning plan!"

If the giant is distracted, how come he doesn't provoke?

This is like asking the question:

When a Wizard casts a spell, he provokes when he lowers his guard. How come he doesn't lower his guard when stunned or unconscious?

 

[blargney the second]

Master of Nine is a cool PrC. I'd love to play one sometime.

As for the rest - like I said, totally minor, maybe not even corrections at all. I was recently rereading the PHB skills chapter, and it made a point of distinguishing between modifiers to skills and modifiers to DCs. Oddly enough, it applied to an attack/AC case that came up in that night's game.

Back a little more on topic, I quite like abilities that let you influence the battlefield/combatants around you. Combat Reflexes + spiked chain is one obvious way to do it, and there are loads of other ways of accomplishing different effects.

My crusader had Goad for a while, but I really didn't find it did what I wanted it to do because the save is fairly easy to make even with a 16 Charisma. I prefer IGG because it doesn't require a save and leaves the DM with free will. There's certainly a path of least resistance, but he's ultimately free to act however he pleases. My DM's done some very creative things to get around it when he really wanted to...
-blarg

 

[Hussar]

Aid Another has one design weakness. It's a standard action. If it were a Swift Action, it would be used a lot and it would be balanced (one ally against one enemy and a roll that may or may not work at low level).

IGG is not balanced. You just like it because it is your PC. I bet your DM is not as thrilled with it as you are because he understands the imbalance of it.


Are you claiming that it is balanced when compared to other multi-target abilities like Inspire Courage or Bless or many many other abilities that can be countered, are rounds or minutes per level instead of 24/7, and do not modify the dice by 4?

No save.
No significant counter.
No failure chance.
No limited duration.
A huge penalty.

I'm surprised your DM didn't ban it outright.

It's not just good. When compared to other game abilities, it's outright broken and there is a valid reason why your DM bitches about it.

It's Persistent Mass Mage Armor that auto-stacks with other armor for up to 8 allies around you. Persistent (+4 levels) Mass (+4 levels) Mage Armor that does NOT stack with armor would be a 9th level spell. We'll call the fact that your allies have to stand next to you (con) a wash with the fact that it stacks with any armor (pro).

So you think that a 9th level spell equivalent is balanced for your PC???

That's the problem with many of the newer abilities in the newer books. Someone at WotC who really understands game balance is not nixing them and these attrocities are showing up in people's games.

Sorry, but IGG is just plain beyond broken balance-wise, regardless of the fact that you like it for your PC.


If I were playing your PC, I would talk to the DM and say "You know what? I now realize how broken this is. I'd like to replace it with a stance that's not quite so uber, is that ok with you?".

Yet, do you have problems with Bardic music? It buffs equally well, for all allies, and does everything you just listed and more.

 

[KarinsDad]

Yet, do you have problems with Bardic music? It buffs equally well, for all allies, and does everything you just listed and more.

Inspire Courage is +1, not +4. At 20th level, it is +4. But, not at first level (and yes, there are Spell Compendium spells which boost it). Granted, it boosts attack rolls and damage rolls (and charm/fear saves), not just the attack roll.

Inspire Competence is only +2.

By high level, Inspire Courage is not as effective. Many allies have Mind Blank or other protections against Mind Affecting effects and it doesn't even work in those cases. In fact, the types of PCs that benefit most from Mind Blank are low Will save fighter types who also benefit the most from Inspire Courage.

Inspire Courage is limited to once per day per Bard level (minus the number of times the Bard does other songs like Inspire Competence). At most once at first level. Not every single combat until later on.

It can be overcome with a Silence spell, a pretty much bread and butter spell for Clerics.

It can be overcome with a Calm Emotions spell.

It can be (partially) overcome with a Deafness spell.

It can be overcome with one or more Thunderstones.

It can (eventually) be overcome with a Grapple/Pin.

It can (eventually) be overcome with many spell effects (which prevent the Bard from performing), for example Stinking Cloud. Dazing or Stunning the Bard will finish up one of his charges per day (although the effect lasts for 5 more rounds).

Stances are not stopped by any of these.

Bardic Music doesn't completely stack with other morale bonuses like the Aid spell or Bless spell or Heroism spell or Heroes' Feast, etc. IGG stacks with everything.

Bardic Music increases in potency and frequency as levels go up. It does not start out real powerful right away.

The only two things that prevent IGG are not being threatened by the stance user or by making the stance user helpless. There are multiple ways to accomplish these, but it requires major effort on the part of the NPCs AFTER they discover that the stance user is using IGG.


And, although Inspire Courage eventually becomes more powerful at higher levels (about the same power level and utility as IGG at level 8, higher at level 14), the Bard himself is typically a LOT less effective than a corresponding Crusader in combat.

 

[RigaMortus2]

You are aware that bows in WoW actually do use arrows, right?

Just helping you keep your anti-WoW stance factual.

I wasn't making a WoW reference. WoW doesn't have Monks either. I was making just a general video game reference. Guild Wars (another MMO) has a Ranger class that uses a bow, and you don't have to worry about buying arrows. Just having the weapon is enough. There are other video games like that as well.

 

[RigaMortus2]

The Intimidate skill will have a Taunt feature attached to it (much like how Bluff has Feint). It is an ability that will be used in combat, and does exactly that. Taunts a target so they concentrate their attack on you.