Have computer games ruined table RPGs?

[Driddle]

Have computer games ruined table RPGs? I'm not talking about product vs. product, but rather the process, interaction and appreciation of people as they play the game.

As time passes, I'm seeing more and more references (here) to number-crunching, min-maximizing, strikeforce team tactics, and building new characters at higher levels. RPG character construction elements are becoming more like computer programing modules - plug in a new prestige class here, add a template there. ... It reminds me of the mouse click-click-click quick changes as you play a computer game. Maybe it's because within just a few minutes you can experiment with so many options on screen and that's being taken to the table with our friends. I don't know. I'm having a hard time clarifying a vaguely defined sense of change.

This might be more apparent to old-school gamers with many years of experience, and even the young pups among us who have the most creativity. Am I way off base?

 

[Driddle]

Or maybe it's just so noticable to me here because of the computer medium itself and those attracted to its extensive use.

 

[Hand of Evil]

I don't think so but it is time and availability, getting a group together to play, finding the time to set up, location to play, all add together. The time at the table is better, it is time with friends, laughing, interacting, something a computer does not allow.

The issue I see is the younger generation of gamers, they are turning to CRPG. Wish there was a way to get them to the table to surport the industry because they miss a lot of the background of rules, interaction of players at the table.

 

[Hjorimir]

While I will certainly agree that CRPGs have lowered the role-playing bar (/sigh) in the arena of tactics they have provided a huge boon to the hobby.

I know that I really started to appreciate 'crowd-control' spells in D&D after seeing them at work playing EverQuest. I used to be enraptured with fireballs and lightning bolts. Now I find so much more value in spells like haste and slow or a well placed compulsion.

Our group, especially, suffered for a year or so while we were all on our EQ kick. But we’ve slowly turned it around as we seek for deeper stories and more sophisticated plots. I have players who are motivated by discovering a truth, knowledge, or philosophical insights playing IMC now (I know this because I’ve forced each of them to quantify personal goals).

At the same time, they can really be effective whenever initiative is rolled. It’s kind of nice to not have to hold back.

 

[Utrecht]

I would say, in a word - no.

CRPGs are basically a box - you are allowed to do a failry broad set of actions inside that box - whereas with RPGs - there is no box.

Secondly, when I play a computer game I am looking at anothers person's interpretation of a world - whereas with a RPG - I paint the imagry

 

[Micar Sin]

You know, I seem to remember hearing this exact arguement back in the gold box days... I don't really think things are truly that much different now... It looks different, I think, because there are more people playing video games, but I don't think those people would necessarily be playing RPG's if they didn't have the CRPGs and such...Video games, even CRPGs, are no longr the sole provence of geeks like they were when I was a kid, whereas P&P RPGs still are for the most part...Heck, I'm an IT Professional (TM) and play a lot of video and pc games, including CRPGs, but I still game every Sunday, and we even have a couple of teenagers in our group....

 

[WayneLigon]

As time passes, I'm seeing more and more references (here) to number-crunching, min-maximizing, strikeforce team tactics, and building new characters at higher levels.

I saw all those things back when I played Original D&D, AD&D 1E, and pretty much every RPG since then. Back then, the people I played with were either the people taking first place at the school science fair or they were (or had been) in the military. The people that were concerned with squeezing as much as they could out of a character were just as prevalent then as they are now, and in much the same proportions.

I think we see a bit more min-maxing in some instances because now it's possible to min-max, rather than just push a stat as high as it would go. You may be seeing more consideration given to a character's stats because now all of those stats mean something, and they give bonuses at lower levels.

 

[alsih2o]

No.

I see this as being like asking if the advent of the microwave has lessened French Cuisine.

I think there are just more and more options, allowing each person to find their own ideal mix.

 

[Creamsteak]

I'll have to state the disclaimer that I hope to design CRPGs one day, and although there are designers that may never have even played a tabletop game, many are trying to bring the table back to life on the computer/console. Some thought that MMORPGs were the way to do this, while others want to make single player RPGs where you can truly decide what kind of character you are (Morrowind and Fabal). My opinion is a variant of the two. I want online games, but not like an MMORPG and not quite as small as a normal gaming table. I like persistent worlds that are alive because of the players, and I hope that the fusion of these two currently seperate RPGs leads us there.

The day that it becomes just as fun and viable to be the merchant trying to convince the ruler of his county (another player) to reduce taxes on imports or to send his militia after the rogues that stole his caravan as it is to be the lone adventurer plumbing the depths of hell is the day that I think we will start to see RPGs start to curve back towards playing the character, and not the statistics. My opinion is the reason why table tops are so much more psuedo-realistic is because the table is so small. It can be incredibly fun to try politicing in a tabletop game, but it's so few people and easy to regulate. You'll still have stat driven CRPGs for all of the life of CRPGs, but were just not at the point yet where you can have a mature game on the computer that incorporates all of the elements of a gaming table.

 

[Sir Whiskers]

RPG character construction elements are becoming more like computer programing modules - plug in a new prestige class here, add a template there. ... It reminds me of the mouse click-click-click quick changes as you play a computer game. Maybe it's because within just a few minutes you can experiment with so many options on screen and that's being taken to the table with our friends.

There's no question that there is some cross-fertilization between the two mediums, but I wouldn't say that computer RPG's have had significant effect on tabletop play. If anything, I see some of the elements you list above as a good thing, allowing characters to be more complex and flexible, without increasing the difficulty of the game too much.

As time passes, I'm seeing more and more references (here) to number-crunching, min-maximizing, strikeforce team tactics, and building new characters at higher levels.

This actually reminds me more of how D&D started, with the old white box set and dungeons full of randomly generated monsters and treasure. Roleplaying was in its infancy and we basically just killed things, solved puzzles, and avoided (or triggered) traps.


Only over time did the hobby develop the idea that character development - as opposed to character advancement - should have equal time and effort. But D&D still has wargaming elements and players in most campaigns have to concern themselves with both sides of the character - power and personality - or be resigned to a frustrating experience. And even in the very earliest campaigns, players focused on good tactics and equipment - you just have read some of G. Gygax's stories to see this.

Have computer games ruined table RPGs? I'm not talking about product vs. product, but rather the process, interaction and appreciation of people as they play the game...(snip)... Am I way off base?

The two mediums really serve different purposes. I play CRPG's for the tactical challenges, as roleplaying is extremely limited in a single-player game (only Planescape: Torment came close to putting the story first and combat second). Tabletop play, OTOH, is about social interaction, both among characters in a campaign, and among friends around the table. CRPG's don't change this dynamic for me.

To respond to your final question, I think saying CRPG's have "ruined" the hobby is going too far. They have influenced the tabletop games, just as the evolving nature of tabletop games influences CRPG's. I see this as a mostly good thing, but YMMV.