Have I been doing grapple wrong all these years?

[Vahktang]

Page 156 of the Players:

The first paragraph of the Starting a Grapple Section:

"Starting a grapple requires a successfull melee attack roll."

I've always done it:
Step 1: Attack of Opportunity
Step 2: Grab (or melee touch attack, this where we would start)

Have I been doing it wrong?

Funny what happens when a newbie comes into an established group.

Thanks.

More later,

Vahktang

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Is your question whether or not the AoO occurs before the initial touch attack?

If so, you've been doing it right - the AoO occurs just before the act that triggers it, so the AoO happens before the touch attack.

Attempting to grapple provokes an AoO from your target, whether or not you're successful in doing so.

EDIT: From the SRD:

Starting a Grapple

To start a grapple, you need to grab and hold your target. Starting a grapple requires a successful melee attack roll. If you get multiple attacks, you can attempt to start a grapple multiple times (at successively lower base attack bonuses).

Step 1: Attack of Opportunity. You provoke an attack of opportunity from the target you are trying to grapple. If the attack of opportunity deals damage, the grapple attempt fails. (Certain monsters do not provoke attacks of opportunity when they attempt to grapple, nor do characters with the Improved Grapple feat.) If the attack of opportunity misses or fails to deal damage, proceed to Step 2.

Step 2: Grab. You make a melee touch attack to grab the target. If you fail to hit the target, the grapple attempt fails. If you succeed, proceed to Step 3.

 

[Vahktang]

Is your question whether or not the AoO occurs before the initial touch attack?

If so, you've been doing it right - the AoO occurs just before the act that triggers it, so the AoO happens before the touch attack.

Attempting to grapple provokes an AoO from your target, whether or not you're successful in doing so.

EDIT: From the SRD:

So, _start_ with a melee hit, _then_ the touch attack (AoO as necessary)
Right?

More later,

Keith

 

[kjenks]

No, just follow the four steps.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

So, _start_ with a melee hit, _then_ the touch attack (AoO as necessary)
Right?

More later,

Keith

Err, no. Here's a quick flowchart example:

Player: "I don't have Improved Grapple, but I want to grapple the Orc anyway."

Orc: Takes AoO; If hit and damage, grapple stops. If Miss or no damage, grapple proceeds.

Player: Rolls a melee touch attack. If miss, grapple stops. If hits, grapple proceeds.

Player and Orc: Roll grapple checks. If Player wins, orc is grappled and takes unarmed damage; grapple proceeds. If Orc wins, players has not successfully grappled; grapple ends.

Player moves into Orc square if he wishes to continue the grapple into the next round.

 

[Vahktang]

No, just follow the four steps.

So ignore the first paragraph?
Then why is it there mentioning to start with a hit, not a touch?

Sorry for being so dense, but it bothers me.
I want to do thing right.
And I remember grapple being so difficult and so rarely used way back in first.
Are they continuing that tradition, or did they stream line it?


Ah well, the consensus is follow the four steps.
No one else seems to start with a melee hit.
I guess I will, too.
Remember, when it's fun against the rules, fun rules.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

So ignore the first paragraph?
Then why is it there mentioning to start with a hit, not a touch?

Because you have to *hit* with your *touch attack* in order to *start* the grapple.

AoOs always happen before the act that triggers them. It's attempting to start a grapple that provokes an AoO, not actually grappling.

Make sense?

 

[dcollins]

So ignore the first paragraph?
Then why is it there mentioning to start with a hit, not a touch?

The first paragraph is a summary and preview of the overall process. The "successful melee attack roll" is just another way of talking about and introducing the "Grab (melee touch attack)".