Have more fun with powergaming

[Nifft]

I'm gonna re-post what I wrote back in this thread about powergaming:

- - -

IMHO, powergaming is a phase.

1/ Intro -> learning the system -> focus on archtype, make stupid mistakes, learn

2/ System mastery -> exult in new power -> create combat-monsters because you can

3/ System transcendence -> realize you can use your system mastery to make the PC you want, rather than the best PC evar. roleplay a PC of your choice with the mechanics to back the concept up.

- - -

For example, a phase 1 swordsman might look like the following. (I've chosen Bastard Sword because it's got a bigger damage die than a Longsword, and therefore looks like a good choice. Also, it's exotic! So it has to be better.)

1: Ftr 1 -- Exotic Weapon Prof (Bastard Sword), Weapon Focus (Bastard Sword), Power Attack
2: Ftr 2 -- Cleave
3: Ftr 3 -- Improved Sunder
4: Ftr 4 -- Weapon Spec (Bastard Sword)


Now, phase 2 might look like this, for all the reasons that people make fun of powergamers:

1: Barbarian 1 -- Combat Expertise, Improved Trip -- (with Flaws: Power Attack, Improved Initiative)
2: Fighter 1 -- Exotic Weapon Prof (Spiked Chain)
3: Fighter 2 -- Combat Reflexes, Power Attack or Weapon Focus (Spiked Chain)
4: Barbarian 2 -- Uncanny Dodge


However, phase 3 is the synthesis of good RP'ing and good grasp of the mechanicals. The player uses every trick in the book to make himself simply the best swordsman in the land.

1: Warblade 1 (plus one flaw, -2 to Ranged attacks) -- Quickdraw, Weapon Focus (Longsword), Unnerving Calm -- (stance) Stance of Clarity, Moment of Perfect Mind, Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Steel Wind
2: Warblade 2 -- Uncany Dodge -- Douse the Flames
3: Warblade 3 -- Improved Initiative -- Disarming Strike
4: Fighter 1 -- Combat Expertise
5: Fighter 2 -- Improved Disarm
6: Warblade 4 -- Perfect Clarity of Body and Mind -- (stance) Absolute Steel Stance, Steel Wind -> Insightful Strike

He's got a few tricks, and he's good at them. He's tweaked to be devastating against a single humanoid opponent, and decent against many. Basically, he's defined his niche, and then used every rule at his disposal to actually fit into his niche, which is the World's Greatest Swordsman.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Satori]

I'll just regurgitate what someone else wrote on another forum.

1. DnD without Roleplaying = Computer Games

Pros: More Objective in outcome, works as an intellectual exercise, draws players that are fond of "Strategy Games".

2. DnD without Optimization = Amateur Drama

Pros: More Subjective in outcome, stimulates artistic creativity, draws players that are fond of "Drama/Acting".

---

Honestly, DnD is WONDERFUL because it allows you to play ANY WAY YOU WANT.

Streamline the rules, DM fiat everything, and minimize combat to ensure a High RP game.

Focus on the rules, use RAW to calculate events, and maximize combat to ensure a High Combat game.

Either way, both parties tend to have fun...so in response to this thread, I choose...

Option C: DnD is great because it allows Roll Players to have as much fun as Role Players.

 

[MichaelSomething]

Powergaming is good in moderation. As long as you don't over do it, it's fine.

However, the monsters in the Monster Manuals are not optimized. If your players are good optimizers, the monsters may not be a match for them.

 

[Moon-Lancer]

How does a bit of powergaming make *your* game more fun? What about it appeals to you?

Well first off I try to never let the power go to my head, or change what i think is the bases of the character. I may bend it a bit, but i am really picky about style. The downfall to that is it cuts out alot of opportunity to be strong. however i find it is a challenge to stay within an idea or themes and try to make it powerful.

Powergameing lets the characters I play be effective at what they claim to do well and i find that fun. I also enjoy characters that can pull off cinematic visuals stunts, or amazing attacks, or do something that no other character can do.

I would really hate it to have a copy cat gamer in my group.

*edit*

I think Nifft is dead Right. For me though, I never got to the point in step 2 were the concept was overshadowed by making the powerful character.

I do say this though, don't like a character because he is strong. like your character, then make him strong.

I think one goes too far when the make a character strong so they can like it. I think that looses sight of game.

 

[Elephant]

Sadly, it took three replies to this thread before the first on-topic reply showed up

Other than that, I wanted to respond to this:

Shh! You're unmasking this cleverly disguised "Powergaming is the only way to roleplay!" thread for what it is

I'll thank you to refrain from putting words in my mouth. This thread isn't about saying that powergaming is the only way to go, only in getting people to talk about what's good about powergaming.

Nor do I personally feel that powergaming is the only way to have fun. However, it IS a valid way to have fun, and since most threads that touch on the subject poo-poo it, I decided to post a thread to give the opposing viewpoint some airtime.

(i.e., the polar opposite of the thread that the OP says was deleted).

Huh? Going by the title, the deleted thread was pro-powergaming. How is that the polar opposite of this thread? Unless you meant that the deleted thread was brazenly offensive and this one is civil (so far...), but your post didn't read that way.

That said. . . powergaming does have its place and there are people who enjoy it. What I don't get is why all forum discussions (including this thread) about powergaming or immersion have to start with an open condemnation of the other playstyle.

Uh? Where do I talk about immersion? You've really misread my intent; I'm trying to get a thread going about what's good about powergaming, what people enjoy about powergaming, why people have fun with a bit o' powergaming - not start a rantfest about how other game elements are inferior.

Please, focus on the topic.

Isn't it possible that both of these playstyles are equally valid when the hobby is examined as a whole, rather than as the product of an individual's personal preferences?

Certainly, and I think that this part of your post deserves a thread of its own...but this thread is supposed to be about how powergaming is fun.

 

[EyeontheMountain]

Powergaming is good in moderation. As long as you don't over do it, it's fine.

However, the monsters in the Monster Manuals are not optimized. If your players are good optimizers, the monsters may not be a match for them.

This is an excellent point, and a good point about power creep also.

Looking at the MM, especially MMI, you see creatures with the lamest feats possible. Toughness? Good Lord! And even a poor optimizer will have more powerful Complete classes ,or at least a few feats/tricks from them. And have a huge advantage, especially if you let players start with a higher point buy, or better than average hit points and good equipment. No challenge at all.

So I think some optimizing of the monsters is necessary, as well as good tactics, becasuethe game has progressed so far for the PCS, but not at all for printed monsters.

 

[Elephant]

IMHO, powergaming is a phase.

1/ Intro -> learning the system -> focus on archtype, make stupid mistakes, learn

2/ System mastery -> exult in new power -> create combat-monsters because you can

3/ System transcendence -> realize you can use your system mastery to make the PC you want, rather than the best PC evar. roleplay a PC of your choice with the mechanics to back the concept up.

- - -
Now, phase 2 might look like this, for all the reasons that people make fun of powergamers:

1: Barbarian 1 -- Combat Expertise, Improved Trip -- (with Flaws: Power Attack, Improved Initiative)
2: Fighter 1 -- Exotic Weapon Prof (Spiked Chain)
3: Fighter 2 -- Combat Reflexes, Power Attack or Weapon Focus (Spiked Chain)
4: Barbarian 2 -- Uncanny Dodge


However, phase 3 is the synthesis of good RP'ing and good grasp of the mechanicals. The player uses every trick in the book to make himself simply the best swordsman in the land.

1: Warblade 1 (plus one flaw, -2 to Ranged attacks) -- Quickdraw, Weapon Focus (Longsword), Unnerving Calm -- (stance) Stance of Clarity, Moment of Perfect Mind, Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Steel Wind
2: Warblade 2 -- Uncany Dodge -- Douse the Flames
3: Warblade 3 -- Improved Initiative -- Disarming Strike
4: Fighter 1 -- Combat Expertise
5: Fighter 2 -- Improved Disarm
6: Warblade 4 -- Perfect Clarity of Body and Mind -- (stance) Absolute Steel Stance, Steel Wind -> Insightful Strike

He's got a few tricks, and he's good at them. He's tweaked to be devastating against a single humanoid opponent, and decent against many. Basically, he's defined his niche, and then used every rule at his disposal to actually fit into his niche, which is the World's Greatest Swordsman.

Cheers, -- N

Would you not term building the Phase 3 character as powergaming? While he's not all twinked out to exploit loopholes in the system, you've certainly done a bit of powergaming in putting together that warblade (ugh...worst class name EVER) character.

 

[Elephant]

As an accomplished powergamer I do have to say that, while it's a fun time, sometimes you do want to play an unoptimized character.

Sometimes.

Point is, nothings wrong with not powergaming. Sure, it hurts the team's chance of long term survival in a combat heavy campaign, but it's all fine.

-TRRW

No one said there *was* anything with not powergaming. What I'm after is, what makes it a fun time for you?

Personally, it comes down to three things:

* I like having effective characters. While the role of clumsy oaf brings a nice sense of comic relief to many media, it's not a character concept that makes for a fun D&D PC, IMO.

* I enjoy the mental challenge of finding the right elements to choose for an optimized character - it's kind of like hitting the right notes while playing a musical instrument.

* It's fun when your PC can do impressive things in-game. Powergaming supports this.

 

[JRR_Talking]

it can get a bit annoying when someone plays with a well thought out concept, is well roleplayed, BUT if your character actually stepped back and thought about it would say "this world is a dangerous place, would i really put my life in this guys hands?"

Whether its an orc/dwarf Bar with all INT, WIS and CHA at 8 or less, who constantly gets you into trouble.
OR some wierd multiclass combo that though flavourful is utterly uselss even at third level

At the powergaming level i have recently started playing Liv Gre. It seems characters have slightly less flavour but more optimal builds for survival. Most of the scenarios seem to have encounters built to near optimum. My charcater build was to be a 'pacifist medic of Elhonna'.

Stats: S14/CO15/WI14/D10/IN8/CH14 Human Favoued Soul
She took toughness twice at 1st level. This may not be very optimised at all. Others in the group where like...erm

Very quickly she became more built like 'Unkillable'. Everyone is now 4th level. She has more hp than the dwarf Barbarian, Better AC than the 18 dex elf ranger, and the best all round saves. She took improved toughness at 3rd and CO15 to 16 at 4th.
She strolls around the battlefield buffing up the party and healing as neccessary.

Im taking 'her' to her first CON in a few months, will see how she fairs up in a more powergamey situation.

I think D&D lends itself somewhat to opti-building. Just the nature of so many areas where conflcit and adverse affects to characters can ocur. If i wanted to play more drama i wldnt play D&D.

John

 

[jdrakeh]

This thread isn't about saying that powergaming is the only way to go, only in getting people to talk about what's good about powergaming.

Really? You're typing a great many words pointing out what you personally consider bad about non-optimized characters. If you want to talk about what's good about powergaming do that, but so far the crux of your posts is that powergmaing is good only because you think that the other end of the spectrum is ignorant or clumsy (both words that you've used to describe non-optimized gaming and/or characters).

Uh? Where do I talk about immersion?

In your very first post you condemned immersive gaming (or, non-optimized roleplay, as you've chosen to label it) as being a deliberate ignorance of feat/skill combinations and suggsted that a non-optimized character is a clumsy oaf by default. This tells me nothing of why powergmaing is fun, only that you intensely dislike the other end of the spectrum. Which is what I allude to earlier.

For a thread that is supposedly about doting on the positive aspects of powergaming, you're not personally doing a lot of that -- you're singling out what you consider to be the weakpoints of the opposing playstyle and harping on them. Again, if you want to talk about why powergaming is grand, do that. Saying things like. . .

While the role of clumsy oaf brings a nice sense of comic relief to many media, it's not a character concept that makes for a fun D&D PC, IMO.

. . . isn't addressing the positive aspects of powergaming, but characterizing the negative aspects of immersive roleplay. I'd love to see you actually talk about the positive aspects of powergaming. And to be clear, this is not the same thing as talking mad smack on opposing styles of play.

You've really misread my intent; I'm trying to get a thread going about what's good about powergaming, what people enjoy about powergaming, why people have fun with a bit o' powergaming - not start a rantfest about how other game elements are inferior.

I suspect that you'd make more headway there if you quit going to great lengths to characterize said other elements as ignorant and/or clumsy, then.

Please, focus on the topic.

Make no mistake, you've absolutely established a topic here, but your intial post set the tone for the thread. The negative characterizations of non-optimized roleplay therein have nothing to do with the strengths of powergaming. I'd love to talk about why powergaming rocks, but that's not what this thread is about, as you make very clear in your first post.

This thread is about, per your own condemnations of non-optimized play and unusual silence about what makes optimized play fun in and of itself, why powergaming is a superior style of play. That is, your initial post is only an evaluation of powergaming's own high points in that it suggests immersive roleplay doesn't measure up by comparison.

Maybe that wasn't your intent, but there it is. Don't feel bad, though. As I said earlier, every single thread on the subject seems to be framed in the same context (i.e., why one playstyle is inherently superior to the other).