Have the third-party d20 publishers failed?
- Thread starter Belen
- Start date
Steel_Wind
Legend
Au contraire. DragonLance is an excellent example - BECAUSE it has succeeded where the others have failed.
WotC determined - on its many buckets theory - that all these multiple settings were bad.
Maybe for them and the alternatives to doing so - that's true. But for 3rd party small presses who are trying to carve out a niche and be all things to all people - maybe the many buckets theory is a damn fine one.
License a property and support it. Stop trying to invent Original IP and popularize it in a vicious market - or sell generic stuff to compete with everyone else's vanilla. Because guys - that is NOT working.
License properties like Black Company, Thieve's World, Game of Thrones - whatever - and make adventures to support it. Don't appeal to everybody and don't try. Appeal to your niche fan base and exploit it.
That is not off subject or a poor example - on the contrary it is highly germane.
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Vigilance
Explorer
Steel_Wind said:
If you can afford to license a property like Thieves' World or Dragonlance.
In other words if you are one of the 2-3 most successful companies around, you can operate under slightly different rules than the rest of us.
But the rest of us are still doing what we can do.
If I could afford to license Starship Troopers Id write modules.
That doesn;t mean that since I cant afford the license I'm stupid, or should run the company I work for in the ground making modules does it?
Which makes your example an exception to the rule. Not something that proves the rules is wrong.
Chuck
The other thing that makes Dragonlance an exception to the rule is that it was a game setting from the start -- and thus, many Dragonlance fans are already gamers.
One of the challenges that you face in licensing a book, movie, or TV property for a game is that, while you have a built-in fan base, many of those fans aren't gamers, and probably will never be gamers. If it were easy to move genre fans into the licensed games, Star Wars and Star Trek would have the biggest market shares of any RPG.
One of the challenges that you face in licensing a book, movie, or TV property for a game is that, while you have a built-in fan base, many of those fans aren't gamers, and probably will never be gamers. If it were easy to move genre fans into the licensed games, Star Wars and Star Trek would have the biggest market shares of any RPG.
Vigilance
Explorer
kenobi65 said:
Ah yes, Star Wars. One of the hottest properties around, heavily (and I do mean HEAVILY) supported by adventures by the former license holder (West End Games) who obviously, since writing modules (especially in support of hot licenses or core products) is such a good business plan are an industry leader...
Oh wait...
I wonder what happened
Chuck
Steel_Wind
Legend
It happened because the owner didn't separate his game business from the shoe business he inherited from his parents.
The shoe biz went under - and took West End with it about a year before Phantom Menace was released. It was not a happy time for West End fans - or their sub-licensees (one of whom was a client of mine).
Kenobi's point was a good one though - quite true. You need to be selective in the properties you license.
The shoe biz went under - and took West End with it about a year before Phantom Menace was released. It was not a happy time for West End fans - or their sub-licensees (one of whom was a client of mine).
Kenobi's point was a good one though - quite true. You need to be selective in the properties you license.
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Vigilance
Explorer
Steel_Wind said:
I knew that, but it did seem to be a humorous thing to say
And as I have said, if RPGObjects were the license holder of a property like Thieves' World, Conan or Dragonlance I would be on the phone with my boss every DAY demanding not only that the company produce modules in support of those properties but also that I be allowed to write them.
But I don't work for a company that owns a license like that.
Which makes modules a dicey proposition for us.
It doesn't mean we hate adventures or have this myopic view of the industry. We actually do modules whenever we think we can make a sufficient return on the investment and do as much free adventure support as we can manage.
Chuck
Michelle Lyons
Explorer
See, I like a good adventure. I can run my own stuff, but for starting out a campaign or during a rough spot when I'm strapped for time, nothing beats having a good module I can just pick up, tweak a bit, and run from there on in. I'm definitely part of that target audience, and if something interests me, I'll be one of the first to grab it. Even I will admit, however, that I'm apparently a rarity in this. Adventures are just flat hard to make profitable, even if they're any good. There's a reason they're often considered "one-print wonders," as very few manage to sell through their initial print run in anything like a timely fashion.
To get around this, I do what seems a natural thing: I buy them as PDFs. Honestly, I hate having large books as PDFs. Hate it. I might buy a core book as a PDF if it's something I have to do research with and I want to be able to use a search function, but otherwise, just no. Adventures don't have to be that long, though, and they're actually useful printed in a looseleaf format sometimes. They have been very nearly my sole PDF roleplaying purchases (I think I'm up to about 8 now). I bought one to run for my nephew at his house. I bought one to run for my husband's character. They're short, simple, to the point, and endlessly useful in that format.
Honestly, I think that for adventures to have a larger, more profitable presence in the market as a whole, they'd have to be sold as PDFs -- which lets out printing, warehousing and distribution costs, but involves treking into that scary electronic publishing realm. It's my hope that with RPGnow and Drive-Thru RPG that we can finally coax some publishers into looking at adventure PDFs as a viable means of supporting those lines and selling products they might otherwise not be able to break even on. I'd love to write some, after all, I just don't have anyone to sell them to.
To get around this, I do what seems a natural thing: I buy them as PDFs. Honestly, I hate having large books as PDFs. Hate it. I might buy a core book as a PDF if it's something I have to do research with and I want to be able to use a search function, but otherwise, just no. Adventures don't have to be that long, though, and they're actually useful printed in a looseleaf format sometimes. They have been very nearly my sole PDF roleplaying purchases (I think I'm up to about 8 now). I bought one to run for my nephew at his house. I bought one to run for my husband's character. They're short, simple, to the point, and endlessly useful in that format.
Honestly, I think that for adventures to have a larger, more profitable presence in the market as a whole, they'd have to be sold as PDFs -- which lets out printing, warehousing and distribution costs, but involves treking into that scary electronic publishing realm. It's my hope that with RPGnow and Drive-Thru RPG that we can finally coax some publishers into looking at adventure PDFs as a viable means of supporting those lines and selling products they might otherwise not be able to break even on. I'd love to write some, after all, I just don't have anyone to sell them to.
Vigilance
Explorer
Michelle Lyons said:
Totally agree. I think PDFs are the future of modules since most modules are not profitable enough to warrant a print run.
PDF also has the advantage of letting the GM just throw the printed PDF away when he's done and allows him to print as many maps as he wants and mark all over the module with notes without ruining it for running later at a convention or for another group later.
Just a good solution all around.
Chuck
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