Have the third-party d20 publishers failed?

[mythusmage]

Why do settings sell better overall than adventures?

Because it's easier to get an adventure out of a setting than it is to get a setting out of an adventure.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

Where are the really hot new games for the next 3-4 years? It's all rehash, tweaking, etc. Another card game, another miniatures game - so what? Where's the next new exciting RPG or HeroClix or (fill in the blank)? The gaming industry (aside from electronic games) is about to hit a recession in a big way, I'm afraid, unless some really creative people with some $$ backing can get some truly new products out there. Otherwise we'll all continue to just keep rolling those dice, playing Axis & Allies or D&D from now till doomsday.

-collin
:\

Apparently this is a general problem within the toy industry.

The Wall Street Journal ran an article recently claiming that Toys R Us was going to get out of toys.

Apparently, the company relied on, as the journal put it, fashion or boutique toy innovations such as Tickle me Elmo, with the market being into such a settling phase, the last fad toy I can remember being Bratz, people aren't so much looking for individual toys at any price as they are serviceable toys at a low price. In turn, Toys R Us is getting eaten alive by Wal-Mart who uses toys as a loss leader.

Long story short, let's hope for some developer out there is coming out with something really cool and limited because I can't imagine that a retail market dominated entirely by big W will be great for Hasbro.

 

[Yair]

I find it unfortunate that d20 publishers do not create more adventures, for purely selfish reasons - as a DM, I run a lot of published adventures (about 1/2 my adventures), mainly because I don't have the time to make the stuff up like I used to.
BTW, I prefer pdf for adventures, so there may be some point to pdfs cutting into sales (I purchase those I play, but I have no idea how many do). So do all the past adventures, which are still available and cheap (like the AD&D ones).

That said, when looking at the products that sell I see some leading companies producing adventure/settings combos. Malhavoc Press, Necormancer Games, and others all seem to make many adventures or adventuer-containing products, and (to an outsider) seem to be doing fine. I can only hope that will encourage future publishers to produce more adventures, though I think those will be in the more sizable sourcebook-adventure model.
I actually prefer the short-adventure model; less of a hussle putting it to use, is over quicker, and I need to read less (did I mention I am pressed for time?). But from what the publishers here told us, this is not selling well.
Another encouraging trend I see is the publishing of very small pdfs, containing just a few pages, for very cheap. So far these have focused on "a dozen new Xs", or "palaidns and clerics in 20 modern", or similar gaming tidbits but IIRC several companies are starting down that road. I can only hope this extends to small-encounters, locations, and plots - small adventures, that can provide the core of the adventure while I fill in the blanks. Frankly, that kind of product would be ideal for me.
It is ironic that the trend in published books seem to aim to larger and larger pieces, while in pdfs there is a trend for lighter one. Or perhaps I am just seeing things that aren't there.

I would like to thank the publishers for being frank. So thanks.

In hopes of greater, better, adventures,
Yair

 

[philreed]

Another encouraging trend I see is the publishing of very small pdfs, containing just a few pages, for very cheap. So far these have focused on "a dozen new Xs", or "palaidns and clerics in 20 modern", or similar gaming tidbits but IIRC several companies are starting down that road. I can only hope this extends to small-encounters, locations, and plots - small adventures, that can provide the core of the adventure while I fill in the blanks.

Do you want short PDFs that have plot information you can expand into adventures? I write those:

A Dozen Disturbing Rumors, 7-pages, $1.35.
http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=3087

A Dozen Troubling Rumors, 7-pages, $1.35.
http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=2807

Or maybe a short, inexpensive adventure:

Allure of the Sea, 13-pages, $2.45.
http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=2190


There's a lot of stuff out there right now.

 

[Krug]

The title of the thread is extreme. How would a d20 publisher fail just because they don't produce adventures? There's loads of campaign supplements, with adventures built into their books, that are successes.

 

[philreed]

The title of the thread is extreme. How would a d20 publisher fail just because they don't produce adventures? There's loads of campaign supplements, with adventures built into their books, that are successes.

What always shocks me is how many people want their hand held all the way. For me, it's very simple to take a three or four sentence adventure seed and come up with two or three ideas on how to expand it into an adventure.

And with Dungeon and the WotC site, why should we waste time with working on more adventures? There are more adventures available now than anyone will ever be able to use.

 

[Belen]

What always shocks me is how many people want their hand held all the way. For me, it's very simple to take a three or four sentence adventure seed and come up with two or three ideas on how to expand it into an adventure.

And with Dungeon and the WotC site, why should we waste time with working on more adventures? There are more adventures available now than anyone will ever be able to use.

Because it is not a waste of time?

Really, there are a ton of ways to help GMs that do not have the time to devote to actually using the ton of source material produced.

Maybe a book that details encounters. Take existing monsters, or write up tactics; describe how terrain can be used to effectively run a fun encounter. etc.

It does not necessarily have to be adventures. However, it would be nice to see books that have something for GMs other than useless feats, PrCs etc. Something that can also appeal to people who homebrew. A book that makes crunch easier to deal with etc.

I love adventures too, but there are other things that GMs get out of adventures such as encounters, ideas etc that make them worthwhile. Why not have a product that is just encounters or tactics.

There are just too many source books being produced. And not enough material that allows easier use of those books.

 

[Belen]

I'm surprised at the venom being turned on publishers who have chimed in on this thread to explain why they don't publish adventures.

I have not seen any venom in this thread directed toward publishers. My main contention was general to the industry at large rather than directed at any one publisher.

And while adventures became the love child of this thread, my main point was really that the market does not seem to be GM friendly and that there were ways to serve that audience beyond the current methods.

As I stated before, I buy a lot of their material. I have bought a high number of items from the publishers who did post in this thread. It's not like I have anything against any one person, but rather I see a hole within the industry itself.

There are more races, monsters, feats or basic or prestige classes than we will ever use. And few to no books that help us use them whether they be adventures or something new and different.

For my part, I apologize if anyone found venom in my words.

 

[philreed]

It does not necessarily have to be adventures. However, it would be nice to see books that have something for GMs other than useless feats, PrCs etc. Something that can also appeal to people who homebrew. A book that makes crunch easier to deal with etc.

There are a lot of materials out there for DMs that do not include new feats and prestige classes. A ton of them.

Geomorphs for Dungeons. A great basis for your own adventures.
http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=3137

Holidays. You can't come up with an adventure around a holiday?
http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=2791

What about a wizard's tower? With maps and NPCs.
http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=2774

What about a bunch of NPCs and adventure seeds?
http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=2773

Or a bunch of locations just waiting to be dropped into a game?
http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=2628


Need I go on? There are hundreds of products out there, right now, for DMs. And they're not even all adventures. But there are hundreds of those as well.

You might want to consider looking at what's available before proclaiming everything to be "crunch." There are a lot of books out there that are written as catalysts to adventure. All it takes is a creative DM to turn them into adventures.

 

[JeffB]

. If you were playing in D&D in the early 80s you had about 6 total adventures to choose from

:\ Huh?

I guess it depends on your definition of "early 80s", but there was considerably mroe than that

B 1-B4 (none connected, so it was not a series)

X1-X3, (none connected)

GDQ

S series (none connected)

T1

U1-U3 (Series)

C1-C2 (none connected)

I1 & I2 (not connected IIRC)

L1 & L2 (series)

A series (Series)

And if we include 1983, god only knows how many more (Dragonlance, c3, B5, B6, X4, X5, X6, I3-I5, WG4, etc, etc)

And then there were the myriad of Roleaids, Gamelords, Companions, Judges Guild & other products

Back in those days we clamored for anything we could get our hands on..official TSR products or not...the demand was much higher than the supply..nowadays it's the opposite...the market is oversaturated.

I'd love to see WOTC do modules IF they are good ones...I was not impressed with any of the Adventure Path modules..at all.

Necromancer is a fine example of "write GOOD modules, and they will sell".Few other companies can do it, because they never picked a target market like Necromancer did...Necro reaches out to a certain element of the D&D fanbase with a unified "theme" in thier products and they deliver the goods year in and year out...no other company to my knowledge does or did so..Nearly every other company that was producing adventures either had a problem with the product being too generic/bland/done to death, or too setting specific.

Necro succeeds 'cos they basically do one thing and do it VERY well, and then just delve slightly into products that will have crossover appeal to both the established "old school fans", as well as "not old school fans" (Tome of Horrors series mainly..mesopotamia, etc).