Have the third-party d20 publishers failed?

[philreed]

As I stated before, I buy a lot of their material. I have bought a high number of items from the publishers who did post in this thread. It's not like I have anything against any one person, but rather I see a hole within the industry itself.

The problem is, you're coming across as if you're attacking publishers. I have put a lot of energy into writing products for DMs. What use will players get out of a PDF of rumors? None if the DM doesn't introduce the rumor in a game. Mundane treasures such as official documents are worthless to players but make an excellent source of background information for a campaign world.

Your message, to me, is: "Everything you've produced for DMs is worthless to me because you're not writing adventures. I don't want material that inspires my own adventure ideas, I want detailed adventures."

There are more races, monsters, feats or basic or prestige classes than we will ever use. And few to no books that help us use them whether they be adventures or something new and different.

And those sell. Very well. But, you know what? My current project, A DM's Directory of Demiplanes, states in the introduction that the reader will not find new spells, feats, prestige classes, or races inside. The project is written for the DM and is packed with adventure hooks, planar locations, monsters, and organizations. All stuff a DM can use as inspiration to designing an adventure. But since there is not an adventure included, your posts suggest that this new product is not valuable to a DM.

I disagree. I think a good DM can do exceptionally well without adventures. Hell, I'm betting a good DM could take my "A Dozen Disturbing Rumors" PDF and come up with 12 adventures.

 

[doghead]

I'm not much of a buyer of anything. So far, I have tended to just buy core rule books and build the rest myself. Finances tended to dictate this course of action when I was a student. Generally, I'm not interested in a new monster every week, nor a hundred different classes and races to choose from. So I've never really collected hardware and splat (?) books. Perhaps it is a result of the above, but I perfer to work on making the familier seem new.

I am surprised by the number of people who seem so adverse to published adventures. Although I tended to DIY on the occasions that I GM'ed, during my time as a tabletop player, published adventures formed the basis of may of our most significant games - WHFRP's Doomstones and the Enemy Within, a Cyberpunk series (or two), a Vampire game. Traveller games were generally constucted from bits and pieces from the Journal or whatever. There was a fairly interesting Car Wars game that came from somewhere. Boot Hill games were generally just made up as we went along, however.

Having taken up PbP GM'ing here, I've been much more interested to try some published adventures. I want to get a different perspective, and see some different ideas in action. Particularly now, as time is a much bigger limiting factor than money. The only problem is finding one that fits. I read through the free WotC adventures and found myself thinking 'Um. Not really.' and 'A what?' rather alot. (I'm going to run some anyway, maybe I'll find that they have merit that I didn't see before. Which hopefully, will open my eyes to better ways to build my own adventures.)

But this is where I think that the adventures have a hard time. Each adventure will probably only appeal to segment of those who play that particular game. A segment of a segment of the market.

 

[JeffB]

. I think a good DM can do exceptionally well without adventures.

True. But how do you get to that level? How do you go about becoming a "good DM" as far as adventure design goes? I suspect most of us learned the game and how to DM by using Modules as our building blocks.

Good modules are an important foundation of rearing "Good DMs"

And I agree w/ BU, the market is over saturated with mostly player products..."crunch" if you will. Certainly there ARE DM products out there, but for the vast majority of D&D players who don't hang around ENWORLD/shop at Rpgnow and don't know there are good PDFs that could help them, it really doesn't matter. PDF's preach to choir, so to speak.The industry needs DM tools on the bookshelves, of which there are few.

As a DM I get far more use out of something like MotP than I do Complete X, where I may just pick a PRclass or two for a NPC foe. And I get far more use out of a module that I can rummage through for ideas and encounters than I do a book on variant rules.

My theory (and it's just a theory) is that the RPG industry (and specifically D20) tends to think that the vast majority of player's and DM's are as hardcore about D&D as they are, and I really don't think thats the case. But they target the hardcore player market with crunchy splats, 'cos thats where the repeat sales & money is. Basically abandoning that large segment of "casual" gamers, instead of trying to make products that will make the game go easier for them (and result in more fun for everyone) and thus they fail to "set the hook". Instead, most of those casual gamers drop out of the hobby as they get bored or frustrated, get older, have a family, etc. The Game designers should focus on retaining those casual gamers over time..to do that you need ease of use...not dumbed down, but ease of use...modules, toolkits, idea mines, easier rules that DMs can use to make sure players have a lot of fun and WANT to keep playing. Those DMs will learn from quality products that help them along in the formative years. But if they don't have them..you can bet your bottom $ they won't be in the hobby long. Look at all the "DM Burnout" threads here and elsewhere on the net that pop-up. The Industry is flooding the market with things that makes a DM's life more complicated for the most part (more rules to learn, extra thing things to adjudicate, exceptions to the rules, etc),under the guise of "options" that will make for a better game. Give it time and the DM WILL get overwhelmed.

my 2 lunars...

 

[Sunderstone]

my 2 pennies

Like alot of other people here, I buy ALOT of d20 stuff. Most of which I will probably never use. For example I buy anything for the Forgotten Realms, Ravenloft by arthaus, and almost everything WotC, and Necromancer.
Ive been DM'ing for over 20 years now and Ive created alot of adventures over that time. Nowadays I simply dont have that kind of time anymore to devote into creating adventures, mainly because Im kind of a details guy. When I did craft some adventures I put alot of crunch into it, be it NPCs, backstory, etc. The same goes for the campaigns I DM. I add story to it, develop NPCs further etc. I spend alot of time in preparations before each session.
Between working, my girlfriend, my friends, building high-performance computers both as a side job and hobby, and still DM'ing on a bi-weekly schedule, I just dont have that much time anymore.

Recently Ive been looking into something a little different setting wise, I looked at Arcana Unearthed from Malhavoc. It all looked good to me but not much support by way of adventures to merit a full campaign for me, so I passed.

Someone mentioned that we shouldnt have our hands held all the time and that a good DM will make do and be able to create alot of adventures with plot hooks of a new setting or sourcebook etc.
To me this is an insult. So I must not be a good DM because I dont have the time to create adventures with the given hooks? Nice.

I bought alot (WotC, Fiery Dragon, Malhavoc, Necromancer, etc) of 3rd edition adventures when they were around as well. Some I wont use and some I will alter for my campaigns. Its much easier and less time consuming to buy a module and edit it to your taste, especially for someone like me who doesnt have that much time to create one.

All I can say is thank god for Dungeon magazine and Necromancer games . The new Dungeon mags are excellent and Necromancer puts out incredible material (though sadly no more smaller modules).

 

[philreed]

True. But how do you get to that level? How do you go about becoming a "good DM" as far as adventure design goes? I suspect most of us learned the game and how to DM by using Modules as our building blocks.

Dungeon magazine and the hundreds of adventures already out there. A subscription to Dungeon alone is all a new DM will need to learn about the art of adventure design.

 

[broghammerj]

Maybe I'm atypical gamer, but here is my 2 cents

I'd like to throw in a couple of points that I think people are missing.

1. To those that argue selling adventures immediately cuts your market to 20% because you're only selling to DMs.

I agree, that yes you're limiting your market by selling adventures. However, you're living in a fools paradise if you think players are buying all the source books too. If you sell an adventure setting...say Scarred Lands, it is more likely that multiple players will own the book if that is the game you're running. However, if you think the race/class sourcebooks are bought by multiple people, then my group must be atypical. How many people in the group need WOTC's Races of Stone? One, the guy who always plays dwarves. I'll just borrow his copy if I need two. Now expand that to all the companies making dwarf sourcebooks. It's ridiculous.

2. I am a doctor now and have been playing for 20 yrs. My game is radically changed as I am sure many of you would agree. I have more professional responsibilities now and my players have children. That means there is a severe time crunch. I want adventures as a quick pick up game since I can only play every 3 months. No one is marketing these towards me. The focus seems to be on huge uber-adventures takeing me from 1st-10th level. There are a lot of adventures out there with no fan support or marketing. I don't pick those since I don't know anything about them. I mine the reviews for the best short adventures and buy those.

3. As I recall many of the old adventures from the 80s were from Gygax's own game, as was Dragonlance from Weis/Hickman, etc. This means the creative cost of these adventures has to be less. I realize you have to pay someone for their creativity, but it must be cheaper than commisioning someone for the work. Why can't this be done again? Why can't Monte Cook sell us his AU home adventures? Certainly you could tie pay into profits. If the module didn't do well, it's less skin off Monte's back since he wrote it for his home group. This of course assumes production costs are at least met so it's not a losing venture.

4. The PDF/minimal print cost adventures should be pursued. These are low cost ways to support a setting. AEG's Adventure Keep modules sell for 2.50-3.00. There production cost has to low if they're that cheap. I've had some great memories from some of those adventures.

5. Lastly, there is the prinicple of economics. If a make product X. I want $1000 to make product X. It will cost me $5000 dollars in production including printing, paying rent, distribution, advertising, etc. I sell enough product to recoup $6000, then that made the product worthwhile. It may not have been "more profitable" but it took care of the costs to make it. The mentality of spending 1000 on and adventure and getting 1000 back vs spending 1000 on a sourcebook and getting 1500 back is going to be tapped out in several years. How many dwarven, necromantic, monster, prestige class books do we need in this overly saturated market.

 

[Teneb]

Someone mentioned earlier packaging sourcebooks and adventures together. We've seen that happen: the Midnight campaign setting has a small adventure in the back. All Oathbound books from Bastion Press have full adventures in them. Its true that this takes out space that could be used for other things, but I really like this model; the adventures breath life into the setting (if written well, obviously).

Example: I had a hard time visualizing certain things about the city of Penance in Oathbound. The sheer number of races, the immense size, the city-upon-a-city. I just couldn't "get it". I flip to the back and there's this adventure Dark Welcomes. Its perfect. It shows me, through description, roleplaying, and combat encounters what the living, breathing city is really like. Call me small minded for not being able to figure this out myself, but the adventures really help me to fully realize the setting.

I should also point out that Bastion has released Horrors of Penance, a free double adventure geared for high level play. Its very good. I'm pretty sure FFG will be releasing their two GenCon scenarios for Midnight in the future as well. These are two settings that I'm the most familiar with, and I think they're both well supported. IMO, this is the way to go.

 

[Faraer]

I'm seeing some of the old 'real DMs don't use modules' snob-rhetoric.

The books which people remember and which contribute to the culture of the game are modules and setting sourcebooks. Those are the height of what this industry produces as products. No one gives a damn about most of the interminable 'option' books in a year's time, let alone ten. So I think producing modules is one of the implicit goals of the d20 industry, and yes it's failing as a whole.

I don't want to demean publishers who've honestly tried to publish modules profitably and failed, and I appreciate the qualifications that have been made, but still I think some people are parleying circumstantial appearances of the market into permanent verities. William Goldman's 'Nobody knows anything' is an accurate description and a healthy attitude. And if publishers stear clear of less obviously profitable books, doesn't that just show they're in it (odd as that might sound for the RPG industry) for the money? Poetry anthologies are much less profitable than novels, but the trade publishing industry would certainly be failing if it largely ceased publishing poetry.

As I recall many of the old adventures from the 80s were from Gygax's own game, as was Dragonlance from Weis/Hickman, etc. This means the creative cost of these adventures has to be less. I realize you have to pay someone for their creativity, but it must be cheaper than commisioning someone for the work. Why can't this be done again? Why can't Monte Cook sell us his AU home adventures? Certainly you could tie pay into profits. If the module didn't do well, it's less skin off Monte's back since he wrote it for his home group. This of course assumes production costs are at least met so it's not a losing venture.

Castle Greyhawk wasn't created with an eye on publication; Gary's other modules were, and playtested sometimes in his campaign (T1-4), sometimes in tournaments (GDQ). Dragonlance was created as a commercial property, but the final modules and the novels arose from playtesting (though Jeff Grubb, Doug Niles, and others were as important in its birth as Weis and Hickman). But yes, there's a great difference between material made up to meet a schedule and material that arises organically over years out of a real campaign. Gary's great dungeon is finally being published; on the other hand, the vast amount of adventure material Ed Greenwood's generated over the 25 years his campaigns have run for is mostly mouldering in his myriad lore-boxes -- most of the levels of Undermountain, the Dungeon of the Crypt, dozens of smaller dungeons, to name only the most transferrable stuff. Yet someone at Wizards decided it was better to hire Jason Carl to design a new Dungeon of Death than to use Ed's. I suspect that it doesn't save all that much time to use such existing adventures, but the quality is generally higher.

 

[Sunderstone]

5. Lastly, there is the prinicple of economics. If a make product X. I want $1000 to make product X. It will cost me $5000 dollars in production including printing, paying rent, distribution, advertising, etc. I sell enough product to recoup $6000, then that made the product worthwhile. It may not have been "more profitable" but it took care of the costs to make it. The mentality of spending 1000 on and adventure and getting 1000 back vs spending 1000 on a sourcebook and getting 1500 back is going to be tapped out in several years. How many dwarven, necromantic, monster, prestige class books do we need in this overly saturated market.

This is a good point.
Someone mentioned this is a small business with a much smaller wallet that WotC for publishing risky (financially) adventures.

Say company A wants to see $5000 profit (instead of the $1000 given in the above example) on product X that costs $5000 to produce to justify another future adventure(s).
Maybe this is too high an expectation on the part of company A? Maybe company A thinks they deserve more for their creative effort?
This is fine. If the adventure is that good it will generate buzz via reviews, word of mouth etc. which in turn should lead to more sales. This is why I think sales stats showed little profit...
a) we dont know what companys set their profit expectations at, some might have been higher than others.
b) business is always a risk, you have to take them sometimes. 2 or 3 outstanding adventures may sell very well and by buzz (word of mouth, reviews etc) do even better by long term sales.
c) reputation of a company A may get better as well, They might become very well known for some of their products or lines which in turn will open new doors as well to other ideas/lines. For example, I would just about by anything from Necromancer because I almost always know they put out great material. I might try something different from them if they should want to try it like a Sci-Fi rpg or something.

I do understand that losing money isnt a good thing and the "one book away from failing" is a hard thing to chance, but quality stuff sells itself and you have to take chances to get bigger. Imagine if Green Ronin just stayed with the Freeport stuff and never got into the Mutants and Masterminds stuff?

 

[Sholari]

Well I respect that opinion.

But the fact is you represent the minority.

Again, even if EVERY GM buys a module I write, that's 20% of the market.

Chuck

I agree with this. Modules are of most use to DMs, which are probably 20-25% of gamers out there. So by their very nature they appeal to a much more limited audience. Once you begin to layer in further constraints such as being setting-specific, set levels, quality issues, etc. this limits the audience further.

However, I would argue that having some solution for high quality, well-thought out modules is in the long-term best interest of the hobby as a whole. Without this I think there are a some number of current DMs who will fall out of running games because they rely on good modules. Since the industry has been focused on more splatbooks and less modules, I have seen a higher level of DM burnout. There have been an elevated level of DM burnout posts on ENworld. There have also been more groups of players looking for DMs, when maybe a decade ago it used to be the other way around. In my own groups I notice more DMs burning out as well. Less DMs mean ultimately less players.

Additionally, I think there is some segment of new DMs, who may require the support of modules to learn how to run a good adventure. For people that are off-the-cuff good ad libbers this isn't so much an issue, but not everybody is. There is some percentage of new DMs that would have a much better campaign experience if they incorporated modules. This is not to say they run the module verbatim per se. An important aspect to using modules is being able to adapt it when players get off course.

Finally, I would say that a number of commercial franchises have been launched by a really good module so their is some brand equity in "memorable" play experiences revolving around a given gaming brand. Ravenloft started off as a really good module and even in recent days you see its continuation. Dragonlance started off as a couple of really good modules. Freeport started off as some really good modules. Iron Kingdoms started off as some really good modules. I'd argue that most settings that last more than a couple years have some level of module support.