Have they tackled Anti-Magic yet?

[Artoomis]

Hmm..

I read much of this thread, but not all of it.

A couple points:

1. Suppressing "passive" magic is very complicated - no one likes having to recalculate everything on a character sheet.

2. The shutting off of active powers (and maybe active use of magical items) could work, but it can get a bit weird. How does not prevent a martial power from working? That really starts to strain credibility, though maybe some sort of "thick air" or something could prevent physical attacks.

Perhaps it is best to accept that anti-magic, as a concept, does not work well with 4e - though you can make it work if you really want to do so.

 

[DracoSuave]

Those four. Each one of the main monsters in the fight can shut down at least one of the characters by getting close. This means the fighter cannot just handle the anti-martial one.

Sounds like a good thematic fight.

 

[Regicide]

Nothing is -not- the DMs choice.

Yes, the DM can choose anything, including the choice to be a bad DM. However if they prefer to be a good DM then that means there are a LOT of things you can't do and a lot of things you should do. Impartiality is generally something you should do as it entails a lot of good things such as letting the PCs play the game and not making their choices for them. Sometimes the PCs need to be told what to do, sometimes they need hints, but an experienced party generally won't feel the challenge level appropriate unless the DM steps back and lets them make their own mistakes and punishes them for it impartially.

 

[The Little Raven]

Sounds like a good thematic fight.

I'm hoping so. I'm including minions for each primary monster which have a +2 bonus to Defenses against the particular power source.

I haven't yet worked out the physical location of the encounter, but that will be incredibly important, as movement control will be a key point to the fight.

 

[The Little Raven]

1. Suppressing "passive" magic is very complicated - no one likes having to recalculate everything on a character sheet.

Agreed. That's why I'll probably alter my Dead Magic areas to specify that enhancement bonuses, item bonuses and the ilk stay active, but active-use powers from magic items are not available.

2. The shutting off of active powers (and maybe active use of magical items) could work, but it can get a bit weird. How does not prevent a martial power from working? That really starts to strain credibility, though maybe some sort of "thick air" or something could prevent physical attacks.

Feeling of Serenity... noone within range of the monster can employ Martial powers... or if you want to go further, no power with the Weapon keyword can be used, thus preventing basic attacks as well, but allowing things like Utility powers.

Perhaps it is best to accept that anti-magic, as a concept, does not work well with 4e - though you can make it work if you really want to do so.

I think it works just fine, as long as you're willing to work the mechanics to fit with 4e's design paradigms, rather than just using previous editions' blanket suppression.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Nothing is -not- the DMs choice.

If the players choose between A, B, or C, then you chose to give them A, B, or C.

If you give them A, B, or C, and they decides to say 'Screw you, DM, we're taking Q' then you decide how to give or not give them that Q, and what manner of Q it is.

For every player action, there is a DM choice in how to run the party -through- that action.

There is no way for the DM to abdicate his responsibility.

True. Which is a strong argument /for/ leaving things like Magic Circle or Anti-Magic Shell or whatever in the game. The DM can screw any player just as hard as he likes, with or without the inclusion of some ritual or other. So, why exclude some classic spell out of fear some DM might 'abuse' it? Game balance is on the player end. It keeps the PCs relatively equal in the spotlight, and able to participate meaningfully in the same challenge. Game balance isn't an issue for the DM, he can imbalance the game just as much as he likes on a whim.


A more cogent consideration is the role played by the spell in the past vs what it would be good for, now. In prior eds, magic was extremely powerful, arbitrary, and vital to virtually all characters (if not thier own spells, then thier magic items). Whipping out an anti-magic shell would defeat magic in a pyrric way, since yours was also negated. In 4e, magic is part of the treadmill, but you can always compensate if you don't want to include as much of it, and PC magical powers are not substantially more potent than non-magical ones (more versatile, perhaps). Losing magic, for any character who doesen't posess magical powers, himself, is not devestating, and cancelling enemy magic may often not be that great an advantage.

Thus, something like the old Anti-Magic Shell would be less powerful, and more situational, than it was in the past. A character able to use it would forfiet virtually all of his powers for doing so, and would not negate that great a portion of that many monster's powers. In some situations, it might be great, but probably not in most encouters. A high-level daily wizard utility version might be perfectly reasonable. To prevent abuse, a preq like "You must be a single-class Wizard," might be a good idea, that way a Martial McWizard couldn't swap it in and use it to hose magical threats.

As a more general anti-(insert source) ritual, it could be more problematic - but, done carefully, no more so than Magic Circle (which is fairly problematic, IMHO, but that's another thread).

 

[balard]

Jeez! Please! Screwing the heroes is a nice story trope! Put yours anti arcane fields all the way. It's obvious that if you focus in combat challenges too much, you piss the players of arcane classes. But if they are mature enough, knows beforehand the kind of problem they will face, it's is ok.

You have to plan carefully to allow everyone have fun, if some are more restricted in their choices. You could give then many alchemical consumptions that are kind simillar to their spells, some powerful magic item that still works in the areas, a nice creature/npc/bodyguard for the player run. If the group and the DM are creative and mature, could be the hell of a campaign. Just give then more option, when you take some away.

 

[lukelightning]

Jeez! Please! Screwing the heroes is a nice story trope! Put yours anti arcane fields all the way. It's obvious that if you focus in combat challenges too much, you piss the players of arcane classes. But if they are mature enough, knows beforehand the kind of problem they will face, it's is ok.

The problem is that it is always the arcane classes that get screwed. And occasionally divine classes (with stuff like "your god can't grant you spells in this plane"). In 3.5 it was accepted because magic was the ultimate power. In 4e not so much.