Have they tackled Anti-Magic yet?

[Mort_Q]

Anti-Magic could be very unbalancing, depending on how it is implemented. Well, to be honest, more like regardless of how it's implemented.

I'm working on a 4e Ptolus campaign idea, and I was thinking of ways to do mimic some of the original 3.5 stuff for flavour reasons.

I want to emphasize the church's (and the faithful's) dislike of arcane magic, and the general fear and loathing for demons/devils (they're the same thing in Ptolus). Good citizens don't use arcane magic, at least not openly. Huge social stigma against Tieflings, blah blah blah...

Anyway, has anyone tackled Anti-Magic yet? WotC?

If not, I was thinking of effects that might start with powers having the arcane power source suffering incremental penalties to attack rolls and/or damage rolls to, in extreme cases having them fail to work at all unless they spend an action point.

There are moments where I don't mind being unfair, for story reasons, but most of the time I want to either be able to penalize other power sources equally (though not necessarily identically) in different encounters/challenges, or make the penalties more flavourful than actual.

Suggestions? If you are familiar with Ptolus DM stuff, please don't spoil it for others by using specific examples from the available plots.

 

[lukelightning]

Now that magic is no longer the supreme power in the universe, why the need for anti-magic? Are you going to make an anti-martial power?

I wouldn't be opposed to a few ad-hoc situations where powers from a certain power source are impeded (e.g. a desecrated temple where divine powers are at -1 to hit), but it always seems that it's a knee-jerk reaction to screw over arcane casters, meanwhile the martial folks are unimpeded.

Also, there is no definition of magic in 4e. There are power sources, sure, and we can all agree that Arcane is "magic", but is divine? What about primal? It is magic when a shaman calls spirits but not magic when a barbarian rages, even though they are both from the same power source?

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

No, WotC hasn't and is unlikely to resurrect anti-magic in anything like the form it had in previous editions in 4e.

It could certainly be done easily enough. You could simply declare "power source X fails to work in this area" with no problem. A more interesting way to deal with it might involve something like a skill challenge. Failure could result in a power source being nerfed in the next encounter or put certain restrictions on its use in a specific situation. Other options might include just making items of certain types fail to work or something like that. A combination skill challenge and combat encounter were the party can remove certain restrictions during the encounter could be pretty cool too. Periodic or dynamic anti-magic zones would fit well with the 4e encounter design philosophy as well.

 

[lukelightning]

I could also see monsters with bonuses to defense vs. different power types (or penalties even). So a Swordmaster might have a +1 to all defenses vs. martial powers. An Accursed Outcast might be at -2 to will and fort vs. divine powers, etc.

I'd be very hesitant to make any power source totally ineffective. You might as well say "ok, just sit out of this combat."

 

[fba827]

there is a dispel magic, which doesn't dispel 'arcane' but rather dispels zones and conjurations. it's a wizard level 6 utility.
i'm sure you could come up with a similar (albeit more powerful) version that would get rid of "summoned creatures" - though summoned creatures can be "gotten rid of" by any of your 'damage dealing powers' so a highly specialied dispel summon may not actually be necessary or even a good idea... zones and conjurations, however, can't normally go away with damage attacks so they needed something to work against them.

 

[Mort_Q]

... but it always seems that it's a knee-jerk reaction to screw over arcane casters, meanwhile the martial folks are unimpeded.

Indeed, this is my fear, and why I asked.

That said, the players know going into the game, about the anti-magic biases, both in NPC reaction and mechanical bias. In fact, I will likely not allow players to start the game with PCs that have the arcane power source, though they can multi-class, once they've met the right/wrong people.

I have some notions regarding the psionic power source as well, but I'll have to see the PH3 first.

I just want to emphasize that this is for a specific campaign, not for a general game.

why the need for anti-magic? Are you going to make an anti-martial power?

There are some things in Ptolus that I'd like to keep, even if they don't fit the 4e universe as well as the 3.X. As for anti-martial (and even anti-primal, anti-psionic) effects... I wouldn't mind actually... although all I can think of is something in the Ptolus version of Shadowfell... STR leach...

I'd prefer something more grounded to the city though, Suggestions?

 

[Mort_Q]

I'd be very hesitant to make any power source totally ineffective. You might as well say "ok, just sit out of this combat."

I'm very hesitant. There is a specific plot point where I'd like to use this, and it wouldn't be combat situation ... although I might throw some minions at the defenders... but mostly a series of skill challenges.

 

[lukelightning]

Depending on your intent you might want to go for impeding/prohibiting certain keywords rather than "magic" or a powersource, that way you can more finely tune the limitations for the intended effect.

A common concern is with teleport, so maybe you could have a special dungeon that prohibits any power with the teleportation keyword, be it an arcane, divine, psionic, or martial power (martial teleport? Who knows?).

Or you are fighting in a shrine to some deity that has an area that prevents using any power with the healing keyword. Or you are in a section of the Shadowfell (or manifest zone) that gives you concealment for one round any time you use a power with the necrotic keyword.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

TO throw another wrench into this.. you need two variants of 'anti-magic': the NPC and PC rules, assuming the setting will allow characters to stop magic...

The NPC side is relatively simple: exception based ability to counter/impede based on power source/keyword/etc..

The PC side gets complicated when considering balance. Is it an encounter power, a daily power, does it use a healing surge? etc...

I like lukelightning approach

 

[lukelightning]

The skill challenge idea (a la AbdulAlhazred) is a good one too. They made a few neat twists with some creatures in MM2 that require skill rolls to deal with their powers (e.g. the sphinx riddle).

You could have a monster that is such a master of the arcane that you need to make an arcane check as a minor action and beat a DC of X to use an arcane power against it within aura 5, or something like that.