Have they tackled Anti-Magic yet?

[Chimerasame]

Consider, there's a difference between "Dead magic" and "Null magic." You can decide for yourself how you want antimagic zones to work. I wrote a bit on this for the setting I mentioned, which has normal, low, dead, and null magic zones.

A null magic zone is different from a dead magic zone. Whereas dead magic might be compared to a silent windless desert, into which one could generate sound if one wished, a null magic zone is more like a cacophanous cavern, echoing and magnifying every miniscule sound a thousandfold, making it impossible to discern any one sound from any other.

In my setting, null magic = no magic of any kind usable. Dead magic = psionics usable because it originates from within, other magic types only usable if you carry some sort of implement/energy source with you.

To implement antimagic in 4e in a "fair" way, I'd go with dead magic in all cases, and let the PCs have sufficient energy sources to use their abilities.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Anti-Magic could be very unbalancing, depending on how it is implemented. Well, to be honest, more like regardless of how it's implemented.

I'm working on a 4e Ptolus campaign idea, and I was thinking of ways to do mimic some of the original 3.5 stuff for flavour reasons.

The /original/ Anti-Magic Shell was a magic-user spell, and it centered on the caster. The effect was quite absolute. The 3.5 version was positively watered-down.

You could bring back anti-magic shell as a high-level daily utility (or attack power?) that creates an aura around the caster in which arcane powers (including arcane rituals) cannot be used and which blocks line of effect for such powers. Alternately, it could be a ritual. Similar powers could be done for controllers of other power sources, similarly damping out thier own power source. It's the kind of thing that's not /entirely/ out of line for the controller role. And, abuse would be starkly limitted by the cancelation of your own powers. You could even require that, to use the anti-magic shell, you must posess only powers of a single source (the ritual/power requires such rarefied mastery that any dilution of your dedication makes it impossible to obtain), or, that a character with more than one power source creates an anti-magic shell that is efficacious against all of them (which'd be confusing for a wizard/fighter).


Hmmm.... actually, you could make it a little simpler than that. The aura could block line of effect for all powers with a source the caster knows a level 1+ power from - and all other creatures with such powers. When confronting other creatures with the same source, it's something of an unbreakable 'flag of truce.' You can't do anything to them, and vice-versa. You can position yourself to block attacks from affecting your allies. Again, sounding controller-apropriate.


You could, I suppose, also just use a variation on the Magic Circle ritual. Instead of keeping out a type of creature, it keeps out a power source.

 

[Aelius27]

I really like the examples listed above targetting specific keywords.

I also think you could do this targetting power sources in limited ways, but I agree with previous posters who said if you just target arcane over and over, then players will avoid arcane classes or be sorry they didn't.

On the other hand, in this kind of world you could have civilizations that shun magic, and all their warriors spend all day practicing against the martial power source, so get a +2 to all their defenses against the martial power source. Or field slightly higher level monsters, and just have any Arcane power get combat advantage because they don't know what to expect, etc.

Played with the right balance, you could have a really interesting campaign that provided a new set of challenges to the PCs. The important thing would be to change things up, and give different types of characters their opportunity to shine. Otherwise you'll just end up with your wizard asking you to kill their character so they can roll up an invoker, etc.


As for "anti-magic" zones, I'm fairly certain you could come up with reasons for any specific power source to be either at a negative, or at a positive in a specific place.

You could also do a zone of muscle relaxing gas, that targets the martial power source but not others, so martial powers (and basic melee/ranged attacks) are at a negative. An oxygen rich environment could make your muscles perform better, and give a bonus to martial powers. That is why certain drugs are banned in sports right, because they increase the oxygen content in the blood, or improve the ability of the body to process oxygen, etc.

 

[Starfox]

Why does people here think Antimagic Shell and its variant would only work against Arcane magic? In previous editions divine and arcane magic were both magic, and if the magic/psionics transparency rules were used, so was psionics. To me, in 4E, "magic" means every power source except martial.

Back to the OPs setting questions, I would not nerf Arcane powers to get the feeling you want. It is supposed to be something to be feared. I would instead give divine NPCS (and possibly divine PC classes) an anti-arcane slant. Make an anti-arcane religion and give it an anti-arcane Channel Divinity power.

It sounds as if one of the ideas behind the campaign is to tempt the PCs to use arcane magic. If you nerf it, you put a role-play tax on those who go along with this idea. Also beware of some PCs making dedicated anti-arcane characters (like an anti-arcane Avenger) and others then turning onto the arcane path - I know I would not want this at my table, but you might.

 

[1of3]

Anti-magic was meant to temporarily nerf certain very powerful characters. Now that all characters are comparably powerful such an effect is not such a good idea.

Instead anti-magic should nerf all characters in a similar way. Something like that might work:

- Properties and powers of magic items do not work and Crit dice do not apply. (It's too tiresome to deduct the enhancement bonuses. I'd keep those.)
- Conjurations are supressed, if they enter the zone, and Zones are supressed, where they overlap with the anti-magic area.

If you then want to have certain special effects against casters, you could rule that characters can not use arcane (or divine or primal) daily power (or daily and encounter powers) within the anti-magic area.

If the effect does apply to at-will powers as well, there should be some other method to circumvent it. Maybe spells cannot be cast within the are, but can be fired into the area.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

There are different takes, none of the perfect:
A few things to ask yourself:
1) Do I really just want to suppress one power source?
2) Do I want to supress anything at all? "Anti" could also mean that it hurts. Only "Null Magic" or "Dead Magic" might require actually suppressing anything.

Antimagic Zone:
Variant A)- Any creature using an encounter or daily power in this zone is subject to a attack X vs Will. On a hit, the target takes 2d6 damage and is dazed until the end of its next turn.
Variant B) A character in this zone cannot use encounter or daily attack powers.
Variant C) Any ritual performed in this zone automatically fails, and magic item properties and powers do not work.

Anti-Magic zone mostly exist because magic is a very powerful tool that can wreck a lot of things. But in 4E, this is not true for "normal" powers. They are just part of a typical characters repertoire. There is little reason to restrict access to powers from just one source. Rituals, on the other hand, can provide powerful effects -they don't kill anyone, but teleporting, scrying and similar things are stuff that you might not want in an area protected by antimagic zones.

A further take might be to just make an Anti-Magic zone deactivate powers of one power source, but allow a skill challenge to penetrate the zone and use powers normally.

 

[Rothe_]

If I ever use anti-magic, it will only really work on rituals and perhaps on a select few things, like scrying or long range teleportation.

It is better to have countermeasures vs. specific things like teleportation, flight etc. that are not so class specific in all cases. You should not nerf one power source completely if you can achieve the same goal by other means.

 

[drothgery]

Why does people here think Antimagic Shell and its variant would only work against Arcane magic? In previous editions divine and arcane magic were both magic, and if the magic/psionics transparency rules were used, so was psionics. To me, in 4E, "magic" means every power source except martial..

Of course, if you use nukes-everything-but-martial anti-magic frequently, you'll soon have an all-martial party. Going without a controller doesn't nerf the party all that much, especially if there's a ranged striker or two (like, say, an archer ranger) around.

 

[Eric Finley]

Honestly, if you want that feel, then offer the users of _____ an inherent boost, and then scatter downsides in the RP and in various counters belonging to assorted NPCs (and PCs!).

My inclination would be to affect the Implement keyword, rather than a given power source. That's your closest easy way to designate "magic" stuff. You may need to make some individual calls (Swordmage powers all count as magic even with the Weapon keyword, etc), but that's a good guideline right there.

So, if you're targeting the Implement keyword, come up with some across-the-board benefits to those powers. Or some disadvantages to Weapon keyword powers instead (and the occasional compensating equivalent, like the +2 to hit in Dragon Breath or Shield Bash). Offhand, try this: Proficiency bonuses are eliminated. Weapons which currently have a +3 prof bonus instead gain the keyword "Accurate" which gives them a +1 to attack if you're proficient with it (much like the inverse of "Defensive"). A nonproficiency penalty of -2 is reintroduced to the game. In addition, saving throws require an 8+ to save versus a "mundane" effect and a 12+ to save versus a "magic" effect (once again defined primarily by the presence of the Implement keyword).

Then, to make up for it, go ahead and design lots of nasty anti-magic effects - magic attacks cannot benefit from CA against this class of monsters, magic attacks are weakened or suffer a -3 to attack while within this warding, this solo gets an additional +5 to saves vs. magic, another one becomes enraged when damaged by magic, a third one has resist 5 magic. Try to tune the mechanical effects such that it becomes a swing thing - sometimes it's better to toe the line, sometimes nothing's stopping you from hucking all the Scorching Bursts your little heart can desire. And then layer the RP element on top of that - life is perhaps more interesting for a magic using character, and certainly riskier, but that's all RP - the more the better.

 

[Flipguarder]

For me if I was to insert an Anti-magic field in the game this is what I would do:


Feat

Divine Circle
Prerequisite: Any Divine class, Ritual casting.
Benefit: You learn the Divine Circle ritual.

Divine Circle
The circle of symbols scratched into the ground glows and
hinder's those who would use arcane power
Level: 7
Category: Warding
Time: 15 minutes
Duration: permanent.
Component Cost: 800 gp
Market Price: 250 gp
Key Skill: Religion
You inscribe a circle on the ground, a circle emblazoned
with Holy symbols of the God you worship. The base cost of this spell is 800gp. For every square the circle covers the price goes up 200gp and takes another 15 minutes to cast. After the ritual is complete, any arcane power attempted within the circle has a -3 to the attack roll, and deals half damage. Your total check divided by 2 is the maximum number of squares the circle can cover.

Nature's Circle
Prerequisite: Any Martial class, Ritual casting, Nature as a trained skill.
Benefit: You learn the Nature's Circle ritual.

Nature's Circle
You grow a circle of trees from the ground, they glow and
hinder those who would use Divine power.
Level: 7
Category: Warding
Time: 15 minutes
Duration: permanent.
Component Cost: 800 gp
Market Price: 250 gp
Key Skill: Nature
You raise a series of glowing trees from the ground. The base cost of this spell is 800gp. For every square the trees encircle covers the price goes up 200gp and takes another 15 minutes to cast. After the ritual is complete, any divine power attempted within the circle of trees has a -3 to the attack roll, and deals half damage. Your total check divided by 2 is the maximum number of squares the circle can cover.

Slowing mist
Prerequisite: Any Arcane class, Ritual casting.
Benefit: You learn the Slowing mist ritual.

Slowing mist
You Summon a circle of slowing mist, it glows and
hinders those who would use Martial power.
Level: 7
Category: Warding
Time: 15 minutes
Duration: permanent.
Component Cost: 800 gp
Market Price: 250 gp
Key Skill: Arcane
You evoke a powerful chant, and a thick mist is summoned from your hands. The base cost of this spell is 800gp. For every square the mist encircles covers the price goes up 200gp and takes another 15 minutes to cast. After the ritual is complete, any martial power attempted within the circle of trees has a -3 to the attack roll, and deals half damage. Your total check divided by 2 is the maximum number of squares the mist can cover.