Have we lost the dungeon?

[Shades of Green]

Rule #1 of GM'ing:

Know your players!

If your players want to explore dank dungeons and underground complexes, by God give them dank dungeons and underground complexes!

If they want political intrigue, give them that! If you're not that good at what your players want, the challenge as a DM is to become better at it. And with the resources of a place like ENWorld, you CAN become better at either one.

You could always combine both approaches into one locale; see the old Ultima Underworld (or Arx Fatalis) computer games as an example.

 

[Von Ether]

Monte Cook said:I have noticed that there are a lot of discussions about campaign world design, and very little (any?) discusssions on dungeon designs.

D&D3 trumpeted a "return to the dungeon". But have we left the dungeon forever?

As a DM and a Player, I miss the dungeons.

Quasqueton

If you read half of the "edition wars" that go around, some fans of the older editions claim the dungeon has never been stronger and that in their games, it was always "In my world ..."

Gaming is such a localized phenomeon that if you don't like certain trend you can just drive another 30 minutes to another FLGS and find what your looking for. For example in South Florida, I know one place where DnD is king and less than half an hour away the staff of another game store has no interest in promoting d20.

 

[Henry]

You could always combine both approaches into one locale; see the old Ultima Underworld (or Arx Fatalis) computer games as an example.

Absolutely - the two elements are not exclusive. But you can shove large site-based encounters at your players every session, and if they don't like it it won't go well; just as well, if your players don't want to maneuver a political maze, you'll have bad results there, too, hence "know your players."

 

[Desdichado]

I think all that was meant was that hte game evolved from its first incarnations as just a game for dungeon crawls. It is not to imply that hte player or people who like this incarnation still are imature or primitive, but that the game is so much more than this one aspect it began with. I think in today's society, RPG doesnt mean what it did 30 years ago because of this evolution, thus dungeon crawl campaigns are moved into the hack and slash campaign style (which, 30 years ago they were the defination of role playing games), which for today's average role player is limiting. Someone likens it to playing in a football game but only using 20 yards of the field to play on. It is quite ok to like this, but there is so much more to the game now days.

That's exactly what I meant, and since I clarified in that same post I was really surprised to see that one quoted as my "condescending" one. Evolved and mature, don't imply superiority, they merely imply change brought about by the passage of time.

 

[Desdichado]

I wonder if he realizes how much you get called that?

No, Brother Dyal is my dad...

 

[Desdichado]

But ... when someone makes a snide comment and says that dungeons are a thing of the past because the market "grew up" ... LOL what do you think that means about those of us who are still fond of dungeons or use them in our current campaigns?

Thats highly insulting, not to mention not all together truthful either.

Thats why I replied as I did.

Y'know, I was going to answer this, but I already have. If you can't be bothered to read my posts on this thread, and try and discuss my actual position, instead of jumping to conclusions and assigning snobby "latte set" attitudes to me, I don't think I should bother.

 

[Mystery Man]

That's exactly what I meant, and since I clarified in that same post I was really surprised to see that one quoted as my "condescending" one. Evolved and mature, don't imply superiority, they merely imply change brought about by the passage of time.

Frankly I think you're completely wrong anyway. What I think is, you're tastes are different that the major portion of the market. If you look at published modules they have dungeons in them, a lot of gamers buy these for that fact. Gamers want dungeons.

What gets me is roleplaying games seemingly touted as some major intellectual exercise. This is not why I get together with my friends every other weekend. It is just a game.

 

[Desdichado]

Frankly I think you're completely wrong anyway. What I think is, you're tastes are different that the major portion of the market. If you look at published modules they have dungeons in them, a lot of gamers buy these for that fact. Gamers want dungeons.

Well, of course that's what I mean! What I also mean is that when the hobby was in it's relative infancy, that was the only way to play. You couldn't buy adventures that were structured differently than dungeoncrawls. Even modern and science fiction predicated games were usually dungeoncrawls. Even Middle-earth Roleplaying was structured around dungeoncrawls. That's just the way the games were played, because that's how the started, and many folks hadn't quite yet figured out how to successfully do anything else with them yet.

By now, that's not true at all. The hobby evolved to accomodate a different style of taste that was already inherent in many players. They naturally gravitated away from dungeoncrawls because they never liked dungeoncrawls that much in the first place, and these newer games/modules/style of play were like a breath of fresh air. Even in junior high in 1980 when I was playing dungeoncrawls, I was frustrated with them. That's one of the reasons I bailed on D&D as soon as White Wolf started putting games out, for instance, and only came back with 3rd edition, which --despite the "back to the dungeon" design philosophy-- was designed so I could more easily ignore the dungeon if I wanted to. Which I most certainly did.

 

[Janx]

one reason the dungeon may have died is that they're a pain in the arse to run.

Using the various programs (Jamis Buck's dungeon generator for one), it's pretty easy to whip up a classic style dungeon. Let's even assume you've got a great plot hook to get the players into the dungeon AND they bite it.

At first glance, it looks pretty easy to run. The players enter an area, you describe it, if monster is present, roll for init, do combat, etc.

But the actual running of it is a drag. Why? Well, unless you hand them the map, you've got to describe each corridor (even in simple terms, "the hallway goes down 50 feet, then T's right and left"). This old school dungeon crawling takes hours. Especially when the PCs have to map it themselves (so they can get it wrong, and get lost, which is fun, see).

I've run a game this way (to go back to the old school roots). They crawled through 2 levels. The next game, I handed them a map (they conveniently found) and they plowed through the remaining two levels like nothing. While playing in another GM's game, I noticed the same lag in game play. Dungeons can be slow.

Now there are ways to speed things up, but the main observation I have is that classic style dungeon crawling is slow, and thus tends to be less fun. I can get more gaming in running through the woods or city. Once the dungeon comes out, suddenly we've got to go walking in 5' intervals.

Janx

 

[Mystery Man]

Well, of course that's what I mean! What I also mean is that when the hobby was in it's relative infancy, that was the only way to play. You couldn't buy adventures that were structured differently than dungeoncrawls. Even modern and science fiction predicated games were usually dungeoncrawls. Even Middle-earth Roleplaying was structured around dungeoncrawls. That's just the way the games were played, because that's how the started, and many folks hadn't quite yet figured out how to successfully do anything else with them yet.

By now, that's not true at all. The hobby evolved to accomodate a different style of taste that was already inherent in many players. They naturally gravitated away from dungeoncrawls because they never liked dungeoncrawls that much in the first place, and these newer games/modules/style of play were like a breath of fresh air. Even in junior high in 1980 when I was playing dungeoncrawls, I was frustrated with them. That's one of the reasons I bailed on D&D as soon as White Wolf started putting games out, for instance, and only came back with 3rd edition, which --despite the "back to the dungeon" design philosophy-- was designed so I could more easily ignore the dungeon if I wanted to. Which I most certainly did.

Well then why the hell didn't you just say that to begin with!!!!!








j/k of course. Poor J.D. he's so misunderstood.