Have you been disillusioned by the Forgotten Realms?

[ricoboc]

I repeat my recommendation to familiarize yourself with Interpretive Theory and Literary Theory.

HUUUUUUHHHHHH!!!!!!!! Are you trying to steal the fun from the system, or teach me to become a literary scholar? Maybe both?

This was my point, how deep do we dig to complain? I've studied all that stuff in school. Perhaps you would like to look me up at Writing .com. We can take this type of discussion their and bring in an entire community of writers.

Don't be so coy. This is as good as saying that anyone who has a complaint is not a DM worth their weight in gold.

Thats simply your interpretation.As a matter of fact , this proves my point about you twisting words.


I initially posted because I DID read post where others treated the material as if it were writen in stone. You my friend, read way to deep into my post and took this a bit to far.

If you would like to dicuss literature do feel free to join me and 1000's of writers at Writing.com. I look forward to seeing you their.

 

[Shade]

Eh, you only think that because you play FR as a pit stop in your Planescape setting. For dedicated FR players, I doubt the cosmological shift is much of a big deal, and I think it's one of the best changes made to the setting, personally.

Every setting deserves its own cosmology, not just the Greyhawk one tacked on.

I wholeheartedly disagree.

I play primarily in the Realms, but have never used the Realms cosmology and have no desire to do so (with the exception of the Fugue Plane, which was a nice addition). I use the Great Wheel with some of the optional planes from the MOTP.

The Eberron cosmology is one of the main reasons I dislike that setting, too.

I do not see an advantage to either of these new cosmologies over the Great Wheel. If anything, they are more restictive. I'd only support a new cosmology if it offered more options

Besides, the Great Wheel is as much D&D as fighters, wizards, dwarves, elves, and alignments.

 

[Pants]

The Eberron cosmology is one of the main reasons I dislike that setting, too.

Why? You're playing in Eberron, not Planescape.

I do not see an advantage to either of these new cosmologies over the Great Wheel. If anything, they are more restictive. I'd only support a new cosmology if it offered more options

I find the Great Wheel to be A) A little old and B) A complete mess when you really look at it.
When you factor in all the campaign settings, Dark Sun, Krynn, the amount of setting shoehorning, and Spelljammer, the Great Wheel is just a mess. While I know that a lot of people will disagree, with WotC supporting only two settings, the Great Wheel has never been better (no damn Kender running around, that's for sure).

The advantages I see of these new cosmologies over the Great Wheel is that they return the focus of the game back onto the setting and not the Planes. I'm playing in Faerun, I'm not using it as a pitstop before I head off to Athas and Oerth.

Though if I was running a PS game, I'd probably use a heavily modified Great Wheel for the game, with FR, Greyhawk, Ravenloft plopped in. Athas and Krynn just don't fit.

 

[Shemeska]

The advantages I see of these new cosmologies over the Great Wheel is that they return the focus of the game back onto the setting and not the Planes. I'm playing in Faerun, I'm not using it as a pitstop before I head off to Athas and Oerth.

They didn't take away anything from the various prime worlds though in the first place. If anything the new cosmology (for FR in this instance) is a broken down rehash of the previous planes, a latter day Ptolemic model attempting to burn every book by Copernicus and stick themselves in all their pride at the center of everything.

If you only wanted to focus on the prime material previously, the planes were just something else in addition to that. It's not like you had random invasions of Tanar'ri taking over Zhentil Keep and going around killing random mortal NPCs or heavily intruding upon the less fantastic events of the prime. Nothing like : '"Sorry Manshoon, go home, we already took over this city and it's owned by Pazuzu now. Run along home now." - Vrock to Manshoon' ever forced itself on anyone.

Now we're left with 'this is the way its always been' and told to ignore all the interloper gods that came from other places that no longer exist and never have, 20 years of references to the Great Wheel in FR books and novels, species and cultures that now don't make sense in light of the new cosmology...

You could run a prime centric game, ignoring the planes entirely under the Great Wheel cosmology, and it didn't impose on anyone. Now you've got a collection of planes that are geared utterly around the deities of Toril, and they're almost useless for anyone wanting to use them for a planar campaign. You can still run a prime centric game on Toril, but the planes are worthless for that now in many ways in comparison to the Great Wheel.

 

[Henry]

Gentlemen:

Let's please stop the bickering and insults. If you have a point you wish to argue about, please share e-mails with one another and take it there.

Thank you.

 

[orangefruitbat]

My FR still uses the Great Wheel!

And we call the Plane of Concordant Opposition too! None of this new fangled "Outlands" and "Sigil" nonsense! And we still have Modrons!

Personally, I found the cosmology changes baffling. The Great Wheel isn't a Planescape thing - it's a Gygaxian thing, and it's in my 1st edition rulebook near the back. It was good enough for older FR novels and modules (Throne of Blodstone comes to mind, and the one where you rescue Waukeen). The new cosmology isn't any more interesting, and adds nothing to the Realms but confusion and a whole chain of novels of which do nothing but describe the upheaval caused when Lolth decides to move to a new address

 

[BOZ]

it's very clear to me that the Planescape designers based a lot of the early material very heavily on established 1E works like the Manual of the Planes, and everything that came after it. really, at the start, they invented very little beyond Sigil and the Factions, but they *expanded* just about everything they could.

 

[JohnRTroy]

One thing I don't understand is when people say there is "too much diversity" and "not enough of a cohesive whole to the realms.

Ever take a look at Europe? Asia? How "cohesive" is Eurpoean culture, both now and in the middle ages? That type of diversity is more realistic than you'd get in another campaign setting. You want a basic culture that doesn't change, just stick to the North or the Dalelands or something. It's a high level of variety that provides options for a campaign. If it was all about the good guys vs. Mordor I'd think it would get boring pretty quick.

About the only negative I agree with was the Time of Troubles plot, because that really felt Shoehorned. I could not emphasize with any of the protagonists, especially since three of them became gods!

Personally, I found the cosmology changes baffling. The Great Wheel isn't a Planescape thing - it's a Gygaxian thing, and it's in my 1st edition rulebook near the back. It was good enough for older FR novels and modules (Throne of Blodstone comes to mind, and the one where you rescue Waukeen).

Technically, the Great Wheel wasn't entirely Gygax's idea. I think it feel to Kuntz and Ward who wrote the outline. Gary was working on a much more revised version of the planar cosmology--I like the Cube of the Inner Planes that appeared in Dragon 73. I think it would have been a lot cooler, tied into the nine Dimensions, all that. Sadly, it was never meant to be. But don't think the "Great Wheel" was a pure Gygaxain concept. It was likely going to be a bit looser than 1e.

 

[Desdichado]

One thing I don't understand is when people say there is "too much diversity" and "not enough of a cohesive whole to the realms.

Ever take a look at Europe? Asia? How "cohesive" is Eurpoean culture, both now and in the middle ages? That type of diversity is more realistic than you'd get in another campaign setting. You want a basic culture that doesn't change, just stick to the North or the Dalelands or something. It's a high level of variety that provides options for a campaign. If it was all about the good guys vs. Mordor I'd think it would get boring pretty quick.

Wow. First an ignorant and incorrect characterization of culture in Europe and Asia, and then a strawman to attack and knock-down!

Yes, we all accept cultural diversity both historically and currently in Europe and Asia. We don't accept ancient Egyptians co-existing with Romans and Renassaince Hanseatic Leagure Germans, though. That's the kind of cultural diversity FR would have us embrace, and it does ignore shared cultural inputs and technology at least.

And, again, nobody is asking for good guys vs. Mordor or cultural homogeneity. Just cultural diversity that--you know--actually makes some sense.

 

[Mystery Man]

Wow. First an ignorant and incorrect characterization of culture in Europe and Asia, and then a strawman to attack and knock-down!

Somebody pissed in J.D.'s wheaties this morning! Great thing about the internet is that we can say some things a certain way without risk of getting punched in the mouth.

Yes, we all accept cultural diversity both historically and currently in Europe and Asia. We don't accept ancient Egyptians co-existing with Romans and Renassaince Hanseatic Leagure Germans, though. That's the kind of cultural diversity FR would have us embrace, and it does ignore shared cultural inputs and technology at least.

Why single out FR? Lots of different campaign settings do this.