Have Your Cake and Eat it Too - Save-or-Die Idea

[IceFractal]

Ok, I've been hearing that Save-or-Die isn't fun. But I don't think reducing it to doing damage is the solution either. I think Save-or-Die could be fun, if it was less sudden and more dramatic.

One solution I've seen that I basically liked was Save-or-Die spells reducing the target to -1d10 HP - it added a chance to save the target, but with an uncertain time limit, and had a decisive effect even when the target was saved. However, it's been pointed out that this type of SoD gets turned into the old instant-SoD by a minion tossing in a Magic Missile to finish the target off.

So here's my idea - decouple the "last chance" period from HP, and just make it a certain number of rounds dependant on spell-level (preferably somewhat random). Also have the "side-effect" be a lot stronger when the victim is saved than if they resist it in the first place, so that the caster isn't wasting their time.


So here's an example SoD, in general terms:
[sblock=Finger of Death]If the target resists the spell, they take 3d6+1/level negative energy damage.
If the spell succeeds, the target is stunned and their life-force begins draining away; they will die in X rounds.
* During that time, someone can save the target by applying a healing spell/ability and beating the caster in a level check.
* Alternately, the target can save themselves by spending an action point.
* If the target is saved this way, they take 1d6/level negative energy damage.[/sblock]The side effect doesn't have to be damage:
[sblock=Winter's Demise]If the target resists the spell, they are slowed for X rounds (not that long).
If the spell succeeds, the target is stunned and will freeze solid (dead) in X rounds.
* During that time, someone can save the target by applying a fire spell/ability or dispel magic, and beating the caster in a level check.
* Alternately, the target can save themselves by spending an action point.
* If the target is saved this way, they are stunned for X rounds.[/sblock]So the basic template is:
[sblock=Save or Die]1) Relatively minor effect if the target resists.
2) If the spell works, they are stunned (figured this would work best, puts them out of combat but not CdG-able), for a few rounds (less rounds for higher-level spells) and will die at the end of that time.
3) They can be saved by a broad class of spells/abilities, but this needs a CL check.
4) They can save themselves by using an action point.
5) If they avoid death this way, they take a major effect, comparable to other spells of that level.
NOTE: There could be some spells that specifically end death effects without a CL check, replacing (to an extent), the ressurection spells.[/sblock]
I think this would make SoDs work in an effective but not game-killing way:
* If you fail to resist it, you get hit with a significant effect, so the caster isn't wasting their time using it.
* Allies have a decent chance to save you, but it isn't automatic, and they have to act fast.
* PCs can usually avoid death, if they have action points; also adds some tension to having low action points.
* SoDs are distinct from standard damaging spells, preserving strategy.
* If you died, it wasn't because of a single bad save, it was because your whole party was outclassed, or nobody wanted to save you.


Now at this point, if they're not already doing things this way in 4E, they're unlikely to start now. However, there's no reason spells/abilities that work this way can't be added to the game, officially or homebrewed.

So would you use abilties like these? Are they great, flawed but usable, or completely pointless?

 

[Anthtriel]

Yeah, this is probably what we can expect. You probably don't get stunned with most abilites, so you don't have a scenario in which the cleric is affected and then no else can save him, or where you cast it on a single monster which doesn't have any comrades to save it, and I suppose there will be some variance with duration and effect, but otherwise I think it's a good model for 4E.

edit: Well, actually, I don't think the level check will make it (other than for dispelling). I don't think it is required. Just say the target needs to get healed for x damage or needs to be hit with x fire damage or whatever.

Should definitely play a lot better than the current model.

 

[Kunimatyu]

I think this is a very solid approach, and I think you'll see it in 4e -- the Beholder flash video indicates that things will work similar to this.

Come to think of it, Nethack works this way for petrification -- you (usually) have a few rounds of "you feel your limbs stiffening" before you actually turn to a statue and die.

Darn those 1980s videogames influencing D&D!

 

[Black Knight Irios]

Seems quite interessting to me.

But it is late - so I'm not making any more comments...



I like it...

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

However, it's been pointed out that this type of SoD gets turned into the old instant-SoD by a minion tossing in a Magic Missile to finish the target off.

Sounds like inappropriate metagaming to me.

If a target goes down from a save or die effect, the caster should assume the target's dead and move on to the next target. If it ends up being a TPK, then the bad guy finds out there's still some people left alive (albeit unconscious) and can finish them off.

Using something like magic missile to finish off someone already in the negatives is, IMHO, super-cheesy and defeats the whole point behind modifying the way save-or-die spells work in the first place. If you believe the save-or-die system needs fluffing then you shouldn't be undermining that fluffing with cheesy coup-de-graces...

 

[IceFractal]

Well, I'm not actually suggesting it work that way (negative HP), so it's somewhat of a moot point, but I wouldn't call finishing someone off that way "metagaming". If you're a Wizard who has used SoD effects before, and whenever you do the target is knocked to almost dead but not quite, it's not unusual that you'd order a minion to finish the job before they can be saved.

 

[Stalker0]

There is definately a possibility for this in 4e.

One of the "advantages" we have is the designers are attempting to increase the number of rounds of combat in 4e. Therefore, effects that take 2 or 3 rounds to fully work can still be effective. In 3e combat, 3 rounds is often 2 rounds past the combat, so delayed effects are pointless.

In 4e? Well, we will just have to see.

 

[Anthtriel]

Using something like magic missile to finish off someone already in the negatives is, IMHO, super-cheesy and defeats the whole point behind modifying the way save-or-die spells work in the first place. If you believe the save-or-die system needs fluffing then you shouldn't be undermining that fluffing with cheesy coup-de-graces...

I doesn't have to be Magic Missile, it could just be a random AoE spell that would have been cast anyway. Or some persistant effect. Fact is, the "drop to -1" model is quite vulnerable to such interference.

 

[Elphilm]

Come to think of it, Nethack works this way for petrification -- you (usually) have a few rounds of "you feel your limbs stiffening" before you actually turn to a statue and die.

Man, that made me want to see the return of the green slime in 4E.

"Your skin begins to peel away."

 

[Gort]

I doesn't have to be Magic Missile, it could just be a random AoE spell that would have been cast anyway. Or some persistant effect. Fact is, the "drop to -1" model is quite vulnerable to such interference.

On a related note, I hope there are fewer AoE damage spells in 4E. I hated the way that you couldn't run a squad of enemies (like 10+) in 3E without them all getting instantly toasted by fireballs. It meant virtually any challenging encounter would be one or two monsters.