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AeroDm

First Post
Tried a quick post on the blog, but not sure if it let me or not. Anyway, this is what I had to say about zones and movement:

Really like the articles so far, and some useful stuff for the direction I have been going myself. One of the similarities is that I was looking at abstract time in combat, in order to handle player action order efficiently, but I had not considered zones.

So have you considered rolling initiative every round and/or combining the initiative roll with the movement roll? That gets a lot of good mileage out of one roll. Roll well enough, you get where you want to be, and get to act first. But if where you want to go is far away, those modifiers mean that you act later. "Fail" your initiative/movement roll, and you get stopped short of your goal and you go very late in the order.

This combo solves another issue I was having, too. Namely, I wanted a declarative phase that was very simple and general, but did lock in the player slightly and have consequences. But I also wanted the players who went late to still be free to act based on the situation as it then stood. Declaring desired location, then rolling for success/initiative order, then dealing with it, meets that goal, I think.

Using stuntways could be a gamble, here. Make it, and you are effectively improving your initiative. Miss it, and you hurt initiative.
That's pretty interesting and it opens up some neat options with regards to timing. For instance, you could resolve all moves by initiative and then resolve all attacks. That would enable a situation where someone with Initiative 10 moves into a zone and is attacked by Initiative 14 (who didn't move) before Initiative 10 is allowed to respond. That is pretty neat especially if you take into consideration my current ideas around provoking.

My main concern, and it is a big one, is that it would just gut clumsy in play. Rolling each round could get awkward (as i recall it being awkward pre-3e). I like the use of initiative to create the initial order and then it evolve through decisions during play. I'd like to see more of your idea--it might just persuade me and new ideas I've been sold on have been the most rewarding thus far.

Thanks for the response. In the future if you want I don't mind you responding here or on the site--they both work for me.
 

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AeroDm

First Post
Posted "the math." These are the numbers that I hope will drive the game. Embedded into it (and explained below in words!) are a lot of the design theories and goals and how I think they will interact to make a solid game.
 

Crazy Jerome

First Post
My main concern, and it is a big one, is that it would just gut clumsy in play. Rolling each round could get awkward (as i recall it being awkward pre-3e). I like the use of initiative to create the initial order and then it evolve through decisions during play. I'd like to see more of your idea--it might just persuade me and new ideas I've been sold on have been the most rewarding thus far.

Thanks for the response. In the future if you want I don't mind you responding here or on the site--they both work for me.

I'll be logging in over there soon, as I really like where you are going with this. I didn't want to let logging issue prevent me from responding until I did, though.

I share that concern for my system work, and it is definitely something that requires playtesting. But here at least is the ivory tower theory crafting (and one practical example) for why it should work in this situation:

1. You are taking a whole lot of the complexity of the movement part out. This means you've got some room to add back in a bit of complexity to handle this aspect.

2. One of the reasons that round by round initiative can bog down in a 3E/4E style system is you've already got everyone rolling for a fairly narrow thing--the order everyone goes. That's all it does. That's why some people even house rule to just go on modifier, and why other games sometimes pick that option, too. There just isn't enough there to make it more complicated or involve decisions. So make it as simple as possible. But as soon as you expand the problem space to "movement + initiative", there are decisions to be made, and thus room for more.

3. This doesn't necessarily have to be round by round to still matter or be useful. See Burning Wheel, where the "positioning test" is a bunch of opposed rolls, then three "exchanges" of combat are made before another test. Not that BW includes character action order in the positioning test, but you get the idea. You might only force an initiative test when someone wanted to change zones, or more than one zone, or beat someone to a zone, or (by fiat) if the DM judged that the original situation had changed a lot. Or any number of things.
 

I share that concern for my system work, and it is definitely something that requires playtesting. But here at least is the ivory tower theory crafting (and one practical example) for why it should work in this situation:

1. You are taking a whole lot of the complexity of the movement part out. This means you've got some room to add back in a bit of complexity to handle this aspect.

2. One of the reasons that round by round initiative can bog down in a 3E/4E style system is you've already got everyone rolling for a fairly narrow thing--the order everyone goes. That's all it does. That's why some people even house rule to just go on modifier, and why other games sometimes pick that option, too. There just isn't enough there to make it more complicated or involve decisions. So make it as simple as possible. But as soon as you expand the problem space to "movement + initiative", there are decisions to be made, and thus room for more.

3. This doesn't necessarily have to be round by round to still matter or be useful. See Burning Wheel, where the "positioning test" is a bunch of opposed rolls, then three "exchanges" of combat are made before another test. Not that BW includes character action order in the positioning test, but you get the idea. You might only force an initiative test when someone wanted to change zones, or more than one zone, or beat someone to a zone, or (by fiat) if the DM judged that the original situation had changed a lot. Or any number of things.
I think initiative is certainly something that should be a little more intrinsic to combat rather than the admittedly easier but less rewarding set and forget style of 3e/4e.

Some ideas to ponder of a semi-cyclical system:

- Initiative. Imagine that a combatant's initiative value is always important and represents how well a combatant prepares and reacts in combat. Skill is as much a factor as reflexes; for example quick reactions are important but skillful combatants tend not to paint themselves into corners.

- Order. You have your initiative value and that determines the order of combatants. You do not roll to modify your initiative value. Every new round, everyone still goes in initiative order.

- Change in Initiative. Not often, but occasionally, a combatants initiative can change. If a combatant is dazed, they may lose 2 off of their initiative until they try to shake it off. If a combat is stunned, they may lose 8 off of their initiative as well as lose all their secondary actions (they can only perform their "standard" action - this has greater repercussions is you follow my standard/minor/multiple swift actions a round idea); again until they can shake it off. A slowed character might only lose 4 to their initiative but they cannot perform reactions.
However, there might also be ways of momentarily increasing your initiative such as if you ready at the end of a round, if you are hasted, or if you are critically successful in an action and thus spend a secondary action to push your character and get an edge in initiative. A leader might be able to increase his allies initiative at a critical point of a battle when he downs an opposing commander.

The important aspect here is that you are giving the "mundane/non-magical fighter" ways of reasonably affecting combatants that previously could only be achieved by magic or slightly far-fetched powers. You are providing another arena for the mundane fighter to excel at thus achieving balance between the fighters and the casters while maybe giving the casters a little of their mojo back.

- Movement and Initiative. If you want to do zones rather than formal concrete movement, I think the trick becomes that you want slower combatants declaring their movement first (and thus higher initiative combatants getting to react to that with possible opportunity actions as required). The higher your initiative the later you get to act (and thus get to put yourself in the choicest zone(s) with fewer people able to react to that movement). Not though that a defenders closing down of a zone still applies, even if the defender does not still technically have initiative on their quicker opponent. And so you effectively determine movement in reverse initiative order. Once combatants have been "positioned" in their zones, actions are then performed in standard initiative order as usual. I like the idea of having multiple actions in a round where they do not need to be performed on your initiative turn but any time on or after your turn in initiative, thus delaying is always free and does not affect your initiative capacity.

The Discrete Round. What happens then is each round tends to be its own discrete thing. You still need to provide the capacity to have actions spread across these discrete rounds. This is usually done by dumping all your actions into an action (such as climbing up to a ledge), that then is not paid off until a subsequent round (the next round, you are considered to be in that "Ledge Zone").

Just some food for thought. :)

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise
 

AeroDm

First Post
I'm definitely interested in the discussion on Initiative because I am getting to the point where I need to think about the ancillary systems of combat that class powers might interact with. So please, keep going if you're so inclined.

An update on "the math" that helps try and explain why I did things the way I did. The big takeaway is that I think it will take the simple and fun decisions from low levels and let you make those same types of decisions across levels of play.
 

Crazy Jerome

First Post
Carrying on from Herremann's different ways of looking at the issue, I'd say a potentially bigger pitfall than bogging down the game is that initiative is really one of those things you can embed into your core game, or it can be this small piece on the edge--but you have to decide. I think that decision should be based on some of the other things you want to do or not do.

For example, one consequence of combining initiative and movement into a single check is that you will likely diminish the import of weapon lengths. Small weapons let you get to where you want to go easier. But big weapons with reach can let you control other movement and perhaps get in the first strike. If intiative and movement is combined, then a dagger not getting in your way when running up the stairs gets cancelled out by being shorter when you get there, and vice versa for a big spear. If you want weapon lengths to feel like they matter, this is not only a minus, it is one that is going to be hard to tweak rules around. The game design will fight you. OTOH, if definitely want this aspect of weapons to be abstracted into something else, well there you go.

Likewise, for any variant of a cyclical or semi-cyclical system. If skill is going to matter for going first, then going first needs to be something that is going to imply a definite advantage. 3E/4E went for a split on this one. Going first matters to a few characters at the beginning of the fight--e.g. rogues, save and die spells, and then matters again at the end of a close fight--i.e. when several on each side down to the point where one more hit can take them out. In the middle, not so much. So it was ok to mainly just tie initiative to Dex. So you have to decide how much "going first" matters, before you can decide how much weight, complexity, and handling time into it.

Another place where initiative may matter a great deal or be completely separate is in "race conditions", including chase scenes. Obviously, if people are making some kind of movement checks, this can matter more than in a game with phased movement and static movement scores. Joe the Barbarian and the Nasty Orc are making a run for the Fountain Zone. The one that gets there first gains some high ground, and first dibs on whatever unknown (to them) magical effect the fountain produces.

Finally, the issue of abstract time, and how far you want to take it. With my system noodling, I kind of backed into my initiative idea, because I am deliberately going for abstract time where characters can pack a little or a lot into a single "action". It's not full-bore conflict resolution instead of task resolution, but an "action" can be a lot more involved than a traditional game like 3E/4E. The more you pack, the more efficient you are, but the more likely to fail your initiative roll and not get to act at all, this "turn". It's deliberately designed so that people will often routinely "fail to finish" their action, and thus:

1. Have the choice to abandon the attempt or keep what time they have invested thus far.

2. Keep the rolls moving around the table, because "fail to finish" has some interesting rider effects that can be handled while the next player rolls.

3. Naturally, keep the tension, in that no one really knows who will really go next.

In a more discrete task resolution system, obviously, none of that applies.
 


AeroDm

First Post
- Order. You have your initiative value and that determines the order of combatants. You do not roll to modify your initiative value. Every new round, everyone still goes in initiative order.

- Change in Initiative. Not often, but occasionally, a combatants initiative can change. If a combatant is dazed, they may lose 2 off of their initiative until they try to shake it off. If a combat is stunned, they may lose 8 off of their initiative as well as lose all their secondary actions (they can only perform their "standard" action - this has greater repercussions is you follow my standard/minor/multiple swift actions a round idea); again until they can shake it off. A slowed character might only lose 4 to their initiative but they cannot perform reactions.
However, there might also be ways of momentarily increasing your initiative such as if you ready at the end of a round, if you are hasted, or if you are critically successful in an action and thus spend a secondary action to push your character and get an edge in initiative. A leader might be able to increase his allies initiative at a critical point of a battle when he downs an opposing commander.

This is pretty neat. It opens up a whole new design space for powers and effects to build off of each other and impact that game in subtle ways. I'm still reticent because I think this approach has a very distinct style that is sort of gritty and realistic. I think using zones is not in opposition to gritty, but I do think it tries to focus on the quick, fluid, and cinematic by cutting away all the little things.

- Movement and Initiative. If you want to do zones rather than formal concrete movement, I think the trick becomes that you want slower combatants declaring their movement first (and thus higher initiative combatants getting to react to that with possible opportunity actions as required). The higher your initiative the later you get to act (and thus get to put yourself in the choicest zone(s) with fewer people able to react to that movement). Not though that a defenders closing down of a zone still applies, even if the defender does not still technically have initiative on their quicker opponent. And so you effectively determine movement in reverse initiative order. Once combatants have been "positioned" in their zones, actions are then performed in standard initiative order as usual. I like the idea of having multiple actions in a round where they do not need to be performed on your initiative turn but any time on or after your turn in initiative, thus delaying is always free and does not affect your initiative capacity.

This is also pretty neat and I really like the potential of having someone move (which might provoke) and then having the person they provoked be able to go before them. It turns the timing on its head and actually makes my idea of 'a provoke' much better.
 

This is pretty neat. It opens up a whole new design space for powers and effects to build off of each other and impact that game in subtle ways. I'm still reticent because I think this approach has a very distinct style that is sort of gritty and realistic. I think using zones is not in opposition to gritty, but I do think it tries to focus on the quick, fluid, and cinematic by cutting away all the little things.
This is true; it really comes down to what you are trying to do with your overall feel. As you know, my inclination is towards focusing on only ten "fattened" levels; where even at high level, you don't get into the real wahoo wuxia style of 3e/4e. As such, I view zones as an option alongside of traditional battlemap/minis play rather than a complete replacement. I think if the duality of this is hardcoded into the rules, you have a greater chance of balancing things. [By the way, did you see my 4 responses to zonestorming here?]
One of the primary issues with 3e is the disparity between casters and non-casters. One of my biggest issues with 4e was how they dealt with this disparity. I see a greater role and importance placed in initiative as one of several ways of balancing the ledger.

This is also pretty neat and I really like the potential of having someone move (which might provoke) and then having the person they provoked be able to go before them. It turns the timing on its head and actually makes my idea of 'a provoke' much better.
It is a little bit wonky but it does catch a certain element of 2e appeal. I think you still need to provide opportunities for actions outside of this initiative including issues of surprise rounds and so on. If you like this idea though, go for it.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise
 

AeroDm

First Post
I have argued against 4e's skill system and the DCs a number of times, but this is a more robust argument on why I dislike the system. I really think it has the wrong basic spirit towards skills and that this sets it off in the wrong direction.
 

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