Heal check in combat

[ravenheart]

Yeah, as malraux said... the status in 'Unconscious' because they needed to name it something. But if the person was truly unconscious you then get into the whole issue that's been discussed ad nauseum about how then could a Warlord use 'Inspiring Word' wake someone up. If you can "yell them healthy" (as the joke has been made), then the person probably really isn't unconscious in the literal sense. I mean after all... if someone was truly knocked out with as much frequency and in such a short period of time as a D&D PC is... that person will have had so many concussions that they wouldn't be able to function after like two weeks of adventuring.

It's the classic conundrum of using fluff terminology to describe game crunch... how do you merge the two together to make some sort of cohesive narrative sense? In most cases (especially in 4E) you really can't. There will always be terms applied to statuses and actions that go against the logic of a narrative story. You have to just accept that although the game status of being 'removed from combat with the loss of all actions, and with the chance of the character being eliminated from the game entirely after three failed Saving Throws' is termed "Unconscious"... in actuality, the literal concept of unconsciousness is not necessarily what is happening to the character.

I agree, but I wish they could've come up with a better soultion, something like "Incapacitated". This, on the other hand doesn't necessarily carry the sensory depriving penalties that "Unconscious" would imply. There is also the issue of Helpless, which IMHO is not a very used or easily applicable condition - even existing powers imposing Helpless seem forced to me!

So maybe one could split the difference, eat up Helpless (like they did by removing dazed from dominated and immobilized from restrained) and be all the better for it? Here's what I'm suggesting:

Change all occurences of helpess into "grants combat advantage, can be subjected to a coup the grace". Change Coup the Grace to refer to the Unconscious or Incapacitated (see below) condition instead of a Helpless target.

Add the following condition:

Incapacitated - While a creature is incapacitated, it grants combat advantage, it can’t take actions, and it takes a -5 penalty to all defenses. It also can’t flank and can be the subject of a coup the grace. When a creature is subjected to this condition, it falls prone, if possible.

Finally, you declare that when a character drops to 0 hp, they are "merely" incapacitated (unless it is unconscious due to some effect). You could keep some drama and/or realism going by saying that a failed death save causes a character to become unconscious until the end of his or her next turn (effectively dropping their defenses by an additional -5), and that they become (and remain) conscious when stabilized.

And now you have plausible, mechanical reason why a character can be roused by his or her ally's inspiring words (if you need such a reason). Now, I take this merely as a thought experiment, but I think I'll try it out in a game or two. Maybe someone else could too, and we could share experiences?

EDIT: Now that I think of it, this is a bit of a derail. I'll take it up int the house-rules forum.

 

[DracoSuave]

Do you mean make a Heal check to avoid the AoO, and then make another check to do the actual healing? Or are you saying to make a Heal check at a penalty, with success being they can heal without AoO, or..?

None of the above. Give the option for the player to make a Heal check as minor action with the cost of that being that it's at a penalty AND triggers an OA. If they choose not to take this option, the standard Heal check is very much available to them, I don't want to take it away.

Seems very meta-gamey to me, the kinda thing I didn't care for in 3.x. It's one short step from having to cross-reference tables. I'd either go with "Heal draws AoO" or RAW. I wouldn't add mechanics.

Again, not telling you how to run your game, just sharing my own thoughts on the matter. Fortunately for all of us, there's no right or wrong way.

Nothing wrong with RAW, and in general I support it. But if I envision using Heal to administer first aid as attracting OAs, I'd rather find a way to do it that empowers the players, rather than punishes them.

 

[moxcamel]

None of the above. Give the option for the player to make a Heal check as minor action with the cost of that being that it's at a penalty AND triggers an OA. If they choose not to take this option, the standard Heal check is very much available to them, I don't want to take it away.

Ahhhhh! Gotcha!

Nothing wrong with RAW, and in general I support it. But if I envision using Heal to administer first aid as attracting OAs, I'd rather find a way to do it that empowers the players, rather than punishes them.

For me, the RAW are good enough in this case. But I like the way you think--empower vs punishment. 100% agreed.

 

[DracoSuave]

For me, the RAW are good enough in this case.

Same here, but I figured it'd be cool to offer an alternative way of doing things that might work out well.

Kinda was inspired by the Dark Sun breakage rules, which I happen to feel is a great way to go about it. I'm very much in favor of risk/reward mechanics if they're well done.

As an example, Legend of the Five Rings has a really elegant one. You have to roll against a set target number to succeed. Normally there's no degrees of success or failure, if you roll 20 over the target number, you succeed with the same efficacy as if you rolled equal to the target number. However, if you want to accomplish with greater success, the player can voluntarily increase his target number in increments of 5, using things called 'Raises.' If you hit the new target number, you can then spend those raises on added effects, like disarming, or extra damage, or faster cast time on spells. However, failing to hit the new target number means you've failed the entire test, even if you'd have hit the original target number.

Risk. Reward.

 

[moxcamel]

As an example, Legend of the Five Rings has a really elegant one...

Oh man...I played a game some (too many) years ago that had a similar system. Now it's gonna drive me nuts trying to remember what it was.

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

Oh man...I played a game some (too many) years ago that had a similar system. Now it's gonna drive me nuts trying to remember what it was.

D6 Star Wars had a similar mechanic, IIRC, but the last time I played that was about 15 years ago, and it was heavily houseruled, so I could be misremembering.

 

[DracoSuave]

Oh man...I played a game some (too many) years ago that had a similar system. Now it's gonna drive me nuts trying to remember what it was.

7th Sea mayhap?

 

[KarinsDad]

How many action movies have you seen where a character is knocked out... but they hear a voice through the black that causes them to come back and rise to the call of action? Is it realistic? No. Is this some medical procedure? No. Is it entertaining narrative? You're damned right it is.

In the case of a druid, there's no necessity for Heal to even represent a mundane skill. It can reflect a magical or spiritual attunement that gives them the ability to do certain effects.

Who is to say that the druid couldn't represent her healing thusly:

Valona saw her companion Ironbeard fall to the pair of devilish orcs. She hurried towards them as she intoned a minor evocation to the spirits of the land... her body twisting into the shape of a cheetah, hoping to arrive on top. Just before the orc made ready to slice into the chest of the dwarf champion, Valona's body changed again... and a swipe with a heavy ursine arm knocked the would-be-killer off balance. Another evocation, she took a breif moment to touch Ironbeard's chest, glowing with a faint green energy, while she fought off the orcish menace, hoping to keep them away just long enough to give Ironbeard (and her orison), a chance to work.

Suddenly Ironbeard woke up, his eyes open and glowing with green light... 'You saved me, Valona!' 'No time for talking, dwarf. You're just lucky I hate this orcs a little more than I hate you. Now get the hell up and fight!'

And yet, in game, this could be represented in the abstract by:

Minor action to Beast Shape (for their MBAs)
Move action to move adjacent to the dwarf fighter
Standard action to make a heal check to allow second wind
Free action for playful banter

The issue with the flavor argument approach is that if the RULE was that First Aid provoked Opportunity Attacks, then you would have probably written something totally different here. Your flavor would most likely match the rule.

I personally like the concept of unconsciousness meaning unconsciousness. I like First Aid meaning that the PC lowers his guard because that's what makes sense for a skill based on the definition of OA (at the moment, our group follows the rules as written with virtually no exceptions, so I wouldn't house rule something so minor though).

For DMs that prefer a more cinematic narrative approach, the opposite is totally fine. But I prefer plausible explanations to non-plausible ones. To me, unconscious is not impaired.


It is interesting to note that some people consider unconscious to be impaired so that the Martial Warlord can do his cheerleader thing to get them back up, but rarely consider the Martial Power source to actually have its own unique supernatural quality to do so. To some people, Martial means mundane and not supernatural, so unconsciousness must mean that the PC is on his hands and knees, just waiting to shake it off.

To me, the Martial Power source is supernatural in nature for Inspiring Word, Come and Get It, etc. No flavor explanation required. It's a power source and it uses its own non-mundane mechanism to accomplish amazing things that normal people cannot accomplish. Like bringing an actually unconscious PC back to consciousness.

So to me, First Aid means actually performing some type of First Aid, not yelling the PC to get back up.

 

[Kingreaper]

So to me, First Aid means actually performing some type of First Aid, not yelling the PC to get back up.

The problem here is that actual first aid takes significantly more than 6 seconds.

So, in addition to provoking OAs, the use of first aid should take, oh, maybe 5 rounds? As a bare minimum

 

[KarinsDad]

The problem here is that actual first aid takes significantly more than 6 seconds.

So, in addition to provoking OAs, the use of first aid should take, oh, maybe 5 rounds? As a bare minimum

Not with smelling salts.