Heal Skill on dying Characters

[DMDanW]

This week a player of mine used the heal skill on a dying character (in negative hit points). He wanted to use his heal skill to allow the other character to use his second wind (DC 10). I could not find a clear reason that it couldn't be allowed under the description of the heal skill, so to avoid a lengthy in game rules discussion I allowed it and said I would look it up after the game.

I looked briefly and have still not found anything solid to rule it one way or another.

So I guess the question is, can an unconsious character use his second wind? Normally it takes a standard action, but with the heal skill (DC 10) it allows a player to use it as a free action (I may be wrong - I don't have the books in front of me) - so it was argued that an unconcious character could do it that way.

Thoughts? Suugestions?

Thanks

 

[Donatello]

Yes you can, as long as they have their Second Wind still.

 

[abyssaldeath]

Also, If they still have second wind, but no surges they are brought back to 1 hit point.

 

[1Mac]

You can't take actions when you are unconscious. Taking a Second Wind is an action, even when it is facilitated by another player's Heal check. So no, actually.

There are already rules for stabilizing a dying character using Heal, with a DC 15 check. It sounds like your players are trying to rules-lawyer you into allowing a lower check.

 

[Mengu]

You can't take actions when you are unconscious. Taking a Second Wind is an action, even when it is facilitated by another player's Heal check. So no, actually.

The heal check specifically says "without the character having to spend an action." So no action needed. You can use it on an unconscious character who has not used their second wind yet.​

 

[DMDanW]

Well the players didn't try and force the issue - he simply asked if he could do it, and since I didn't want to spend valuable game time looking it up I just made a ruling on the fly that he could this time, but that it would be reseached after the session.

As for not taking actions while unconcious, well, an unconcious character still at the beginning of his turn takes ongoing damage, regeneration if he has it, ect, and at the end of his turn makes saving throws against ongoing effects, and vs death. As well, if another player has an ability to grant an ally an immediate saving throw this too would count towards an unconcious character (although I am not sure it would count for saves vs death, but rather only saves vs ongoing damage & effects). How is the ability that grants a second wind as a free action any different? Is it due to the fact that it is a free "action" whereas other powers that allow characters to spend healing surges do not require any action on the part of the character receiving it?

If there is a clear specific rule I'd love to know where it is so I can show my players.

 

[1Mac]

Second Wind is specifically listed as an Action Type, which is what I based my reasoning on. You can of course receive all kinds of passive effects that may grant Healing Surges or saving throws, but you normally cannot take actions while unconscious.

However, Mengu above is right, in that the Heal check specifically mentions that it doesn't cost the target an action. So mea culpa.

It still feels like an end-run around the proscribed stabilization rule. I guess you could argue that a Second Wind is an encounter resource, and that if you hadn't spent it before you started dying, you should still be able to gain some benefit.

 

[mlund]

As for not taking actions while unconcious, well, an unconcious character still at the beginning of his turn takes ongoing damage, regeneration if he has it, ect, and at the end of his turn makes saving throws against ongoing effects, and vs death.

Actually, Regeneration specifically says, "If your current hit point total is 0 or lower, you do not regain hit points through regeneration." - PHB 293

It still feels like an end-run around the proscribed stabilization rule. I guess you could argue that a Second Wind is an encounter resource, and that if you hadn't spent it before you started dying, you should still be able to gain some benefit.

That's pretty much how it goes. If you have some reserves, you have some reserves. Whether they help you get back up off the floor or keep you from hitting the floor is just a matter of timing.

- Marty Lund