Healing Potions seem odd

[Mengu]

Yeah, the fact that they use a surge is pretty crazy. Healing potions really are no longer magical, they're just Red Bulls. I can see a pretty common house rule being that players have infinite surges, or that potions don't use surges.

6 hours of rest magically heals all wounds, thus most of the time potions aren't needed. However if the adventure has a time constraint, having a daily limit on surges does exactly what you've said, places the DM in a position of either boning the players or having to change the adventure. All because of some silly new limit that had no need to be imposed. Healing surges really are a pointless mechanic and they're very immersion breaking. They do very well at simulating kid's cartoons like Naruto where one frame he's dripping blood and the next he's perfectly healed up and his cloths are no longer ripped, but they're complete crap for making one feel like one is playing a fantasy character.

Wow, tell us how you really feel about it.

Healing surges are a game tool for resource management. They replace the everpresent 3.x wands of cure some wounds. Instead of running out when you run out of money (i.e. just about never), healing surges run out daily. The overall feel of healing magic in 4.0 is not that different than 3.x. It's simply broken down per player so each player keeps track of their own "wand charges" instead of the cleric, and healing actions are less of a drain on combat actions.

 

[Saeviomagy]

6 hours of rest magically heals all wounds, thus most of the time potions aren't needed. However if the adventure has a time constraint, having a daily limit on surges does exactly what you've said, places the DM in a position of either boning the players or having to change the adventure.

If the players are guaranteed not to reach a time constraint, what was the point of having one in the first place?

 

[Regicide]

If the players are guaranteed not to reach a time constraint, what was the point of having one in the first place?

It's bad game design to place the player(s) in an unwinnable situation, and healing surges and linking them to healing potions facilitate this.

Hitting a time constraint because the players chose wrong, the BBEG tricked them, they unwisely choose to do something they shouldn't have etc. is a perfectly legitimate way for the party to fail at something because of a time constraint.

Getting hurt by some bad die rolls to the point where they can't go into the final fight with the BBEG despite the fact they have backpacks full of healing potions is not fun, and shouldn't come up, but because of the blatent stupidity of healing surges, it can.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, 4E is a trainwreck of bad design. Good goals, good ideas, bad bad bad implementation.

 

[KarinsDad]

Getting hurt by some bad die rolls to the point where they can't go into the final fight with the BBEG despite the fact they have backpacks full of healing potions is not fun, and shouldn't come up, but because of the blatent stupidity of healing surges, it can.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, 4E is a trainwreck of bad design. Good goals, good ideas, bad bad bad implementation.

Getting hurt by some bad die rolls to the point where they can't go into the final fight with the BBEG because of the fact they do not have backpacks full of healing potions is not fun, and shouldn't come up, but because of the blatant stupidity of lack of healing surges, it can.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, 3E is a trainwreck of bad design. Good goals, good ideas, bad bad bad implementation.


Sure, one can find corner cases that cause issues in any game design. Any. That does not make them trainwrecks. It makes them corner cases. If they show up a lot in some group's game, that group can houserule them. Be it 1E, 2E, 3E, 3.5, 4E, or a totally different RPG.

 

[Saeviomagy]

It's bad game design to place the player(s) in an unwinnable situation, and healing surges and linking them to healing potions facilitate this.

I don't see how game design is responsible here. If the DM assigns the players an impossible task within a system, then the DM is at fault. It's hardly bad game design if a DM places level 1 characters in a one-on-one fight vs the tarrasque on an open, infinite plane now, is it?

Now possibly we could blame the game if it recommended incorrect time limits for tasks (similar to if the MM said the tarrasque was a level 1 challenge), but I'm not seeing it.

Hitting a time constraint because the players chose wrong, the BBEG tricked them, they unwisely choose to do something they shouldn't have etc. is a perfectly legitimate way for the party to fail at something because of a time constraint.

So...

Would you say that getting TPKed because your party makes bad tactical decisions and then roll badly is a symptom of bad game design?

Personally I like the fact that a party under time constraints might actually have to put some effort into fighting efficiently and avoiding fights that they can avoid.

 

[ryryguy]

Sure, the healing surge mechanic, and linking healing potions to it, is a bit game-y. (Note: hit points are extremely game-y... hit points are pretty much Exhibit A for game-y game mechanics in every edition of D&D, so it's not surprising that you find the same in healing mechanics.)

But where does the idea come from that having a backpack full of healing potions, enabling you to keep going through infinite combats and injuries as long as the potions last, is somehow more immersive than the surge-linked healing potions? At best, it's about the same. Springing to mind is that quote from somebody-or-other that is in somebody-or-other's sig, about internalizing 3e's mechanics to the degree that they are mistaken for reality.

So a healing potion not working if you don't have a surge left means that they are somehow not magical, just Red Bulls? There's plenty of tradition in fantasy sources for magic that unlocks the potential you already have... magic that draws on your inner strength, and when your inner strength is exhausted, can no longer benefit you. And it's still plenty magical to me that this "Red Bull" instantly replenishes a quarter (approximately) of your fighting strength in an instant, in the heat of battle. And in higher leveled versions, maybe lets you shrug off an ongoing condition, or even brings you back to life!

The surge and healing potion mechanic is good for modelling Naruto, it's true. Also good for modelling Conan, Grey Mouser, any number of high fantasy literary or cinematic sources. But backpacks full of healing potions? Don't recall them showing up in any fantasy books I've read.

Hmmm, let's see, where do those backpacks show up? Diablo! Everquest! Yeah, sorry, I just can't see where they are more immersive, less game-y. They're just what you're used to from other games.

 

[NorthSaber]

Our group has only 3 players and no leader, and I can't wait to get my hands on some of those healing potions. At level 4 my healing surge is about 10 anyway, so spending 50gp for a minor action that allows me to activate the surge is great!

I can see, later on, that I'll have to think twice about using a potion, since I could get more hp from the healing surge after combat when I have a chance to rest. I see why they did this, though, as if the potion always just activated a healing surge, they'd scale infinitely and there would never be a need for a better healing potion - and I like that there are different potencies available.

As for the realism, when you consider almost any medicine or drug, you eventually reach a point where additional doses in the same day just have no effect - or actually become harmful. So basically the way 4e does it is more realistic than pretty much anything I've seen any other RPG do.

I can see how the way it works now might be disappointing to those who are used to having near-infinite healing provided they have enough gp to spare, but I prefer this system myself. Sticking to clearly defined resource pools means you need to strategize more carefully, which creates better immersion in my opinion.

 

[Runestar]

It's funny. When 4e was released, people were touting about how the at-will/encounter power system freed people from the resource constraints of 3e (with its vancian spellcasting system and all) and we would then be free to run however many encounters we deem appropriate at a sitting. No more 4 encounters/day and all that.

Yet now, the healing surge mechanic seems to suggest that our party's resources are now even more limited than ever, because one's number of surges appears to be more or less a hard cap which is almost impossible to circumvent (though there are a few ways of optimize your healing, which lets you stretch your surges). Unlike 3e, we can't even use our wealth to overcome this limitation in any meaningful manner. If our party runs out of healing in the middle of dungeon, we can't fall back on wands of vigor. It is a mandatory extended rest, even if the BBEG spellcaster is on the verge of freeing demogorgon into our world...

Is this intentional? It is kinda weird about how I was hearing one thing then, and a totally different thing now. Limited healing - bug or feature?

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Potions work as they do because if they didn't a paragon or epic level hero could buy "limitless" healing. A Level 5 Potion cost are trivial for a level 25 hero.
If they didn't require healing surges, they would provide limitless healing after combat.
If they didn't provide fixed healing, they would replace all other types of in-combat healing.

Is this intentional? It is kinda weird about how I was hearing one thing then, and a totally different thing now. Limited healing - bug or feature?

I think it is intentional. Healing Surges ensure that you can't go on and on and on. You must rest at some point and can't go from level 1 to level 30 in 1 day.

Personally, I think there should be a few more ways to regain healing surges then just the extended rest. I think giving out a healing surge for each milestone might be fair - you will probably spend more then one surge per encounter, but it lets you go on further even if you're at your end.

Ultimately, one problem of 3E remains - extended rests will still be required at some point, so you can't create an adventure flow as you like, you are constrained by the system. But I can't really see a way to avoid this without running into problems elsewhere. (Like the PCs never needing to rest.)

As a DM, you still have to be alert about how you structure your encounters to avoid that the PCs don't have any more resources (dailies and surges) when they fight the final battle.

 

[Danzauker]

If our party runs out of healing in the middle of dungeon, we can't fall back on wands of vigor. It is a mandatory extended rest, even if the BBEG spellcaster is on the verge of freeing demogorgon into our world...

Where is it different from 3.x?

Callit vands of vigor, call it healing surges,If you exaust your healing, you are in deep trouble.