Healing Potions seem woeful

I don't think Donald Trump or Bill Gates would object to taking a $5,000 dollar pill (that he knew worked) that could _potentially_ save his life and definitely save him hardship and pain.

50g is not an appreciable sum of money to an adventurer, any more than 50 cents is to a normal person in real life. I'd cheerfully knock back healing potions in real life if they were 50 cents, even if I knew I could just wait to sleep for the night.

Wait. Healing Potions are Red Bulls and Espressos, aren't they? Except, cheaper :)
 

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I am inclined to try to use them in play and see how they work before I deem them worthy of being fixed.

My initial thoughts on a fix however would be to make Healing Potions only be able to used Daily and additional Healing Potions would not be cumulative. The effect would be as if you spent a Healing Surge.
(or multiples thereof for higher level potions)
 

For folks who really get bent out of shape about letting the party regain full HP and resources after an extended rest, you could just require that your party include a cleric.

You could then make something up about how you only get your healing surges and HP back if the cleric is there and has been able to also take an extended rest -- simulating the old 3.x "Cleric blows all his healing spells, reloads, does it again" thing while still allowing that player to actually use their powers during combat.

Alternately, make up a free ritual that any cleric can do that restores full HP and healing surges to the group, but you can only cast it once per day after a good night's sleep. Or maybe you have to drink a healing potion (for no effect) and then sleep soundly to be fully recovered. Whatever sounds plausible for you and your group.

I don't think it's necessary, but if nonmagical healing is a dealbreaker for you, you don't even have to change the rules that much to "fix" it.
 
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SweeneyTodd said:
For folks who really get bent out of shape about letting the party regain full HP and resources after an extended rest, you could just require that your party include a cleric.

You could then make something up about how you only get your healing surges and HP back if the cleric is there and has been able to also take an extended rest -- simulating the old 3.x "Cleric blows all his healing spells, reloads, does it again" thing while still allowing that player to actually use their powers during combat.

Alternately, make up a free ritual that any cleric can do that restores full HP and healing surges to the group, but you can only cast it once per day after a good night's sleep. Or maybe you have to drink a healing potion (for no effect) and then sleep soundly to be fully recovered. Whatever sounds plausible for you and your group.

I don't think it's necessary, but if nonmagical healing is a dealbreaker for you, you don't even have to change the rules that much to "fix" it.

Yeah, I was thinking of doing some similar things. There just has to be some restriction on this for me, otherwise, where's the real threat? I like the ritual idea. That way, any character could do it, provided they have Ritual Casting, and there could be some matieral component cost. Nothing too expensive, mind you. Otherwise it's just too video gamey/movie fantasy for my liking.
 

Ahglock said:
I can accept the gamist aspects of this, though yes it is incredibly wonky if you try to logically work it out.
No, it really isn't. What is wonky is the healing system trying to pretend that hp represent real and serious injury. That they have managed to stop doing that, while simultaneously avoiding the opposite problem of allowing characters to fight pretty much non-stop all day is the antithesis of wonky.

silentounce said:
What's that saying about a pot and a kettle?
My favourite version is "Pot, this is Kettle calling; you're black!". However, it doesn't apply in this case. Regicide was incredibly rude and aggressive (so much so that I reported the post, which I almost never do). VannATLC was the soul of diplomacy by comparison.


glass.
 
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Can I have a whack at the idea of Hit Points, Healing Surges, and how they effect role play?

First, I think people are forgetting a basic truth of both Hit Points and Healing Surges:

The CHARACTERS don't know they exist. Period.

That being said, they don't KNOW they're totally restored after a night's rest. They don't know they have 3.729 Healing surges left. They possibly know they feel better the next morning, but let's try an example with a single character we'll call Samule...


Samule wakes up, hearing an alarm from the town bell. Get jumps up, grabs his trusty sword, and slips on a hardened leather longshirt over this regular clothing, and hits the door outside fast.

[Samule has 30 Hit Points, and 10 Healing Surges.]

Turning to look down the road, he sees Mr. Crossbowman. The next thing he sees is Mr. Crossbow Bolt missing him by an inch and nearing spoiling his nice new pants.

[Samule was actually hit with this attack, but honestly, HP are a combo of luck, health, and being just to darn stubborn to DIE. He is now down to 25 HP]

Not being one to like having pointy-stick-thingies embedded in his body, he takes cover in an alley and listens. Mr. Crossbow man, not known as being the most complicated thinker, runs around the corner into the alley to give chase, and enjoys a sudden improvement in airflow around his neck as Samule's sword rushes to fill the ever-widening gap between Mr. CBM's head and shoulders.

[Scratch one minion with a successful attack roll]

Pity that Samule didn't know about the other THREE guys following Mr. CBM into the alley. Within seconds of Mr. CBM's head bouncing happily past his friends, they all three take swings at Samule, every one hitting!

[Samule is hit for 8, 10, and 4 damage, leaving him with a WONDERFUL 3 HP left to keep him from suffering disability. At this point, he's a little banged up, but not maimed.]

Samule, being an upwardly mobile kind of guy, runs like all get-out relying on the hope that the gold coin he donated to his local church bought him a favor. Oddly enough, they all miss his back as he runs, and give chase. Samule ducks in a doorway, and waits for them to pass, taking a breather and offering up some feverant prayers of thanks to the patron saint of cowards.

[Yup, they all missed. Get over it. At this point, the encounter is over, and Sammy boy uses 4 of his 10 healing surges to recover.]

Samule is getting a touch nervous now, and is considering holding out in the building until the whole thing blows over. That idea is ruined when he hears a crash from the next room, and the cry of a woman and child begging for mercy. With a heroic sigh of annoyance, he rushes to the next room and body tackles the Evil Soldier.

[New fight starting. He has 30 HP, 6 healing surges, and serious issues with bullies.]

Mr. Evil Soldier takes offense at Samule interrupting his 'happy time', and beats on him with his war axe with the interest of doing serious bodily harm. Samule wants the hurting to stop, and pokes the pointy end of the sword into his new friend with enthusiasm and vigor.

[By the time Sam has finished helping Mr. ES stop worrying about that little breathing problem he had, he's been hit 3 times for 18 points of damage. He has 12 HP.]

And then, he graciously accepts the thank you and reward from Mrs. Victimwithson, in the form of a cast iron skillet cracked up against his head.

[Whoops! Correction. He has 8 HP left. My fault.]

Hurried on his way out the back door again, he runs into his three old buddies. They're OVERJOYED to see him, and rush to greet him. He rushes to greet a door on the other side of the alley, and bars it from the inside. A few minutes later, he's hiding in a cellar.

[The encounter is over again, now, and he takes 3 more healing surges, giving him 8 + 21 HP (7 each), and ends up with 29 HP. He now has 3 Healing Surges left, and is starting to feel like a small horse walked over him.]

The three stooges, figuring if Samule was smart, he would have went out the front door and ran for it, immediately decide to explore the cellar. Samule decides to hold the doorway so he only has to face them one at a time.

The first one gets a hit on him, and he tries to pull himself together for the second one. He's able to kill the second with a lucky hit, and faces off with the third. After a pitched battle, he suddenly remembers which end of his sword is best embedded in the other guy's skull, and does so.

[The first one hit him for 7 points before he kills him and spends a action on a Second Wind, getting those points back. He gets hit twice more by the third one for a total of 13 HP damage, leaving him with 16 HP]

Taking a breather, again, and feeling like the gods are playing a joke on him, he rests and rubs his ribs. He feels tired, achy, and has several cuts and bruises all over his body. He's love nothing more than to just call it a day.

[Yup. He's got 30 HP now, but is out of healing surges.]

And he hears the woman scream again from next door...

With a tired sigh, he pulls himself up, and slowly walks up the stairs. an air of finality hangs about him as he knows his luck can't hold out. Win or lose, this next fight is his last.

[At this point, the wounds would still be superficial, but more dramatic, The crack of a rib, the dislocation of his shoulder for a moment, and finally, the possibility of nothing he does working to hold of the sheer exhaustion nibbling away at his resolve. Someone fighting to this point has pretty much not only ran out of luck, but also the ability to shrug off the attacks facing him.]

While any character can fall due to damage taking thier HP down during combat, Healing surges seem to better represent the old saying, "Shucks! It's only a flesh wound, Mam...". It looked bad, but it's not really fatal at all.

Thoughts?
 

TheFool1972 said:
Can I have a whack at the idea of Hit Points, Healing Surges, and how they effect role play?

snip

Thoughts?

I think that's a good explanation and that it will work for a lot, but not all people. Also, they should have used a different word other than bloodied for half HP due to the connotations/implications of that word.
 

glass said:
No, it really isn't. What is wonky is the healing system trying to pretend that hp represent real and serious injury. That they have managed to stop doing that, while simultaneously avoiding the opposite problem of allowing characters to fight pretty much non-stop all day is the antithesis of wonky.

Because of course people fighting all day by using magic is completely implausible. And wars have never happened with battles that last longer than 10 combat rounds.

They've tied healing potions to healing surges. They've made taking a 6 hour rest more powerful than magic. Maybe you like that sort of thing. Personally I think it's about as retarded as it can be.
 

TheFool1972 said:
That being said, they don't KNOW they're totally restored after a night's rest. They don't know they have 3.729 Healing surges left. They possibly know they feel better the next morning, but let's try an example with a single character we'll call Samule...

Is that an example from actual play, or is it something you just made up on the fly for the discussion?

If it's the latter, you should really try to provide one of the former.

Anyways, I'm not into the whole debate, other than to say that last night our party's paladin got his ass SAVED from death (and with him, the entire party from TPK) no less than three times thanks to an ally using a standard action to administer healing potion.

The players really surprised me by saving up their 100 starting gp and after buying basic armor and weapons sinking it all into 4 healing potions. (I should also mention that they made the party cleric-less on purpose, since none of them liked the class.)

Anyway, they apparently knew what they were doing, since they took care of KotS all the way up to and including Irontooth without a single extended rest, and ended the night singing the praises of their potions.

So, I had had some of the same doubts as here when I first read the PHB potions section. But as usual, actual play trumps logical deduction by a mile :)
 

I think that the healing potion mechanic and scaling works well in practice. There really is no substitute for a healing potion when trying to revive a party member with negative HP. Heal checks are not guaranteed, but 10HP from a potion will get you back on your feet every time. 50gp is a pittance to pay for that kind of reliability.

The higher level potions scale proportionally to the amount of wealth that the characters collect, so I don't see what the problem is there. 50gp is always a good deal though, so much so that everyone who can afford it should keep one in a backpack for emergencies.

I'm running a KotS game and the party also immediately sprang for 4 healing potions. The cleric was taken down by a pair of guard drakes and needed to be revived via healing potion since nobody could quickly and easily pull of the required heal check.

From my experience there are times in combat where players would love to be able to use a healing surge, late in the fight after all the second winds are blown. A high-con fighter could afford to spend 5 healing surges if it gave him a "third wind" during a tough encounter.
 

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