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Health Should Be Replaced With Fatigue?

Water Bob

Adventurer
I was reading the thread on HarnMaster (a game I've always wanted to try, but haven't), and something struck me. In combat with most rpgs, we track damage, then we try to handwave what that damage really means to the character, since we want our heroes not to be maimed or down healing for a long period of time.

That's not very clear. Let me restate, and take D&D for an example. In combat, when a character is hit, he looses hit points. But, what do these hit points mean? They can't be real serious damage because the character is not affected the way he should be if seriously damaged. So, we reason out what these abstract hit points mean.

Wouldn't it be better, instead, we measured fatigue (in melee combat)? Instead of how much damage a character takes, we measure how tired a character is getting. As the character gets tired, fatigued, he's more likely to get sloppy and actually sustain a wound. Inflicting wounds on your enemy is the ultimate goal of combat, but it should happen rarely (Otherwise, we're rolling up new characters and not having fun way too often.). And, when a wound is achieved, the effect of that wound could be anything from a graze or bruise to broken bones, chopped off limbs, or internal injuries. Wound results in combat would not happen that often to Player Characters (about as often as a D&D character reaching 0 hit points), but when the wound does happen, the results are serious.

Bring armor into the mix: Armor would have a strong impact on combat, making it several times harder to wound an armored target. But, armor also makes the character fatigue faster.

And, I've always thought that melee combat and hand-to-hand combat should not be so separated. In RL, it's common for a melee weapon fight to also include punches and head knocks, bites, grapples, elbows, wrestling, and such. I think that HTH attacks should support a melee fighter.

For ranged combat (be bows and crossbows or pistols and blasters), the combat model should be changed a bit. Faitgue is not the measured factor here. Maybe luck?

I'm just thinking out loud, here.
 

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A lot of games -- going all the way back to the '70s -- do have that form of split. Chivalry and Sorcery is a good example with their Fatigue and Body. Hero Games (CHAMPIONS) split into Body, Stun, and Endurance.

What typically happens is the rules split "meat" from the rest and gives few ways to hit "meat". Then someone notices an edge case (like a C&S fighter whose shield is so full of arrows he's unconscious) and tries to patch it.

Players tend to seek out ways to attack "meat" directly as that shortens combat.
 

A number of d20 games use a system that splits hps into wound points and vitality points, similar to what you're talking about- take a look at D20 Modern if you want an example. People who favor that sort of division generally speak highly of such systems, but I haven't tried them myself.
 

In D&D 4E for example I see hp as a measure of 'tiredness'. Only until the last few HP, I see it as the character dodging, getting tired, brusied from absorbing blows on shields or parrying, or as a wizard 'shielding' damage or the like.
 


Yes I know about the D&D and d20 variants, and I know other games play with that model (heck, I said in the OP that I got the inspiration to post from the Harn thread). It's just that hit points seem to be more prevalent among rpgs...and I wonder why? Why do the systems that make more sense labeled as variants?

Even with D&D, if you consider most of the hit points a character has as "fatigue" or "luck" type points, there's a strange thing that happens when a character gets to 0 HP. He collapses.

I'm suggesting that combat might be more fun is damage happened in stages and included stuns and things like a bruised hand that has some light penalty associated with it for a few rounds. A cut that bleeds, trickling 1 hp of damage each round.

I'm not talking about critical hits with fingers being chopped off, eyes removed, limbs cut in twain. I'm talking about small penalties in combat that a character must deal with for a short period of time--or maybe until healed.

D&D has spells like Protection From Good and the like. What about a hell of a bang to the shield that would numb an arm for three rounds, causing a small penalty, or a way to follow up your sword strike with a quick smack to the jaw (yes, 3.5 E has this, but it gives the defender an Attack of Opportunity, so no players use it!).
 

Let me restate, and take D&D for an example. In combat, when a character is hit, he looses hit points. But, what do these hit points mean? They can't be real serious damage because the character is not affected the way he should be if seriously damaged. So, we reason out what these abstract hit points mean.

Wouldn't it be better, instead, we measured fatigue (in melee combat)?

Today is by Birthday, so forgive my bluntness (its my Birthday after all). As an old codger that's been on these here interwebs since pretty much the beginning , I swear this must have been what happened:

In the beginning, there was light (internet born)
Day 1 - first post on a message board - "What do you think HPs mean?"
Day 2 - porn (scanners were slow back then, otherwise porn would have been first).

My advice to you is just roll initiative and go kick some butt. HPs make the whole thing work - it allows piddly humans to go kill Tarasqueses, shrug off fireballs, absorb 20 arrows from little goblins, and fall of 100' cliffs without even spraining an ankle. Thinking about it just unravels all the fun of D&D. For example, that falling off a cliff I just mentioned - is it tiring or unluckly based on your post? -- see - it just makes your head hurt to think about it. Dragon's breath - does that make you tired? Yep, you just pulled the thread on the rug.

I play Savage Worlds these days and it does things much different. From that perspective, one sees the elegance of the whole HP/AC/Damage system of D&D, especially when dealing with the Giants/Dragons/Big Nasties out there. It works so well that most video games use it (although FPS seem to have moved away from it). Its something that D&D got right for what it wanted to do - heroes doing heroic things that no normal human could even try.

Grumpy old man signing off :)
 

[MENTION=26651]amerigoV[/MENTION] - Happy Birthday!

You're assuming I'm advocating a system that doesn't allow characters to be heroes. I'm not saying that at all. Notice how I said that the be Fatigue (that would heal quickly) and light damage, like scrapes and bruises that hinder the character for a few combat rounds. Plus, add in HTH strikes and holds, for a bit more realistic system that is also fast-n-easy to play and allows for Heroes to kick butt.

...Something a bit more believeable than a character being 100% healthy at 80 HP or 1 HP, but dead or dying at 0 HP or -1 HP.
 

I'm suggesting that combat might be more fun is damage happened in stages and included stuns and things like a bruised hand that has some light penalty associated with it for a few rounds. A cut that bleeds, trickling 1 hp of damage each round.

I'm not talking about critical hits with fingers being chopped off, eyes removed, limbs cut in twain. I'm talking about small penalties in combat that a character must deal with for a short period of time--or maybe until healed.

Generally, the kind of thing you are referring to is often called the "death spiral". A few games have such a system- the 1e World of Darkness had a very steep curve on it- and it often leads to, not dramatic fights with last-minute pc victories, but fights that go from tough to unwinnable because of the penalties. So instead of increasing the tension and excitement, the death spiral leads to despair and defeat or flight.

So, contrary to increasing the fun, death spiral mechanics often decrease the fun for most players.

Now, there are exceptions, of course- every style of player is out there somewhere- but no, I absolutely would not want to see this as the default in D&D. In fact, I'm much more in favor of the fingers chopped off, eyes removed, etc.- via a well thought-out critical hit system that doesn't apply a lethal crit without lethal damage, and takes care to ensure that the crit's severity makes sense vis-a-vis the damage the victim takes- that you mention.
 


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