Heavy Blade Opportunity + Two Weapon Flurry

[RigaMortus2]

Just wondering about how DMs interpret this combo:

Assuming a typical Ranger using Scimitars in both-hands:

Heavy Blade Opportunity lets you use an At-Will in place of normal Opportunity attack (OA).

Two Weapon Flurry lets you make an additional OA with your off-hand weapon against the same target at -5 penalty, provided you had attacked with your primary weapon.

So is it possible to gain OA on an enemy, use Twin Strike as your OA (main hand and off hand attack), let it trigger Two Weapon Flurry, and then use Twin Strike again?

Heavy Blade Opportunity
Prerequisites: Str 15, Dex 15
Benefit: When you make an opportunity attack with a heavy blade, you can use an at-will attack that has the weapon keyword instead of a basic attack.

Two-Weapon Flurry
Prerequisites: Dex 19, Two-Weapon Fighting
Benefit: While holding a melee weapon in each hand, if you make a successful opportunity attack with your primary weapon, you can also make an opportunity attack with your off-hand weapon against the same target (but with a –5 penalty to the attack roll).

 

[Kordeth]

No--Two Weapon Flurry lets you make an extra OA with your off-hand weapon, and Twin Strike requires that you make one attack with your primary hand and one with your off-hand.

 

[RigaMortus2]

No--Two Weapon Flurry lets you make an extra OA with your off-hand weapon, and Twin Strike requires that you make one attack with your primary hand and one with your off-hand.

You are still fulfilling that criteria. Heavy Blade Opportunist (HBO) lets you replace that attack with an At-Will (in this case, Twin Strike).

Essentially:
Enemy provokes OA.
HBO allows Twin Strike in place of OA.
Twin Strike attacks are made.
TWFlurry allows OA @ -5 to hit.
HBO allows Twin Strike in place of OA @ -5 to hit.
Twin Strike attacks are made, @ -5 to hit.
End.

 

[Zurai]

Even if Twin Strike isn't allowed, you could still do (for example) Nimble Strike, which is probably even better in certain situations. Very nice find, RigaMortus.

 

[Kordeth]

You are still fulfilling that criteria. Heavy Blade Opportunist (HBO) lets you replace that attack with an At-Will (in this case, Twin Strike).

Right, but TWFl is still only specifically letting you make an OA with your off-hand weapon. You can't then turn around and use a power that attacks with your primary hand weapon any more than you could use Heavy Blade Opportunity to make an at-will OA with a mace you're wielding in your off-hand. You could use Twin Strike, I guess, but you'd only be allowed the off-hand attack part.

Essentially:
Enemy provokes OA.
HBO allows Twin Strike in place of OA.
Twin Strike attacks are made.
TWFlurry allows OA @ -5 to hit.
HBO allows Twin Strike in place of OA @ -5 to hit.
Twin Strike attacks are made, @ -5 to hit.
End.

I understand the logic of your sequence, but IMHO it doesn't work on the second Twin Strike, because Twin Strike is an attack with both your weapons while TWFl only allows you to make an OA with your off-hand weapon.

Really, though, I think Heavy Blade Opportunity should probably just be limited to once per enemy's turn.

 

[RigaMortus2]

Right, but TWFl is still only specifically letting you make an OA with your off-hand weapon. You can't then turn around and use a power that attacks with your primary hand weapon any more than you could use Heavy Blade Opportunity to make an at-will OA with a mace you're wielding in your off-hand. You could use Twin Strike, I guess, but you'd only be allowed the off-hand attack part.

I understand the logic of your sequence, but IMHO it doesn't work on the second Twin Strike, because Twin Strike is an attack with both your weapons while TWFl only allows you to make an OA with your off-hand weapon.

But, instead of making an OA with that off-hand weapon, I can use an At-Will power in it's place thanks to HBO, so long as I am using a heavy blade. The fact that it is off-hand doesn't matter, as that is not a criteria for HBO to trigger. What is a criteria is that you use a heavy blade. I would say, the second Twin Blade attack should probably also get the -5 penalty.

 

[Kordeth]

But, instead of making an OA with that off-hand weapon, I can use an At-Will power in it's place thanks to HBO, so long as I am using a heavy blade. The fact that it is off-hand doesn't matter, as that is not a criteria for HBO to trigger. What is a criteria is that you use a heavy blade. I would say, the second Twin Blade attack should probably also get the -5 penalty.

I disagree. Nothing in HBO (use an at-will power with a heavy blade when you OA) overrides TWFl (make an OA with your off-hand weapon). The rules should combine (use an at-will attack with your off-hand weapon as an OA), and Twin Strike fails that criteria.

 

[bjorn2bwild]

I disagree. Nothing in HBO (use an at-will power with a heavy blade when you OA) overrides TWFl (make an OA with your off-hand weapon). The rules should combine (use an at-will attack with your off-hand weapon as an OA), and Twin Strike fails that criteria.

I disagree here. I believe you have it reversed and nothing in TWFl overrides HBO.

Let's look at the two feats:

HBO: When you make an opportunity attack with a heavy blade, you can use an at will attack that has the weapon keyword instead of a basic attack.

TWFl: While holding a weapon in each hand, if you make a successful opportunity attack with your primary weapon, you can ALSO make an opportunity attack with your off hand weapon against the same target (but with a -5 penalty to the attack roll).

TWFl is triggered when a successful opportunity attack is made with your primary weapon. It does not simply allow you to make an opportunity attack with your off hand. What it does do is allow you to make an extra opportunity attack (with your off hand weapon). Note that this does break the normal rules regarding opportunity attacks.

Now, HBO, on the other hand allows you to use, for an opportunity attack, an at-will instead of a basic attack.

In this case, we're going to use twin strike as the at-will that substitutes for a basic attack.

Now, in order for TWFl to trigger, we must ask two simple questions.

First, is an attack with the character's primary weapon found in the power twin strike. And the answer is yes.

Second, did that attack successfully hit the target? If the answer to both questions is yes, then TWFl triggers and an extra attack roll is made (at -5) using the off hand weapon.

It sounds bad, but it's really not any more powerful than TWFl without twin strike. Remember, twin strike does not add in STR to damage. It's slightly more damage than normal, but not that much.

I think it's cool, but certainly not crazy

 

[bjorn2bwild]

Another thing I just thought of...

HBO allows you to use an at will instead of a basic attack for an opportunity attack.

TWFL let's you get off an extra opportunity attack. If you combine the two, would you be able to use an at will power for that extra opportunity attack, provided you have a heavy blade in your off hand?

 

[Otterscrubber]

I like the interpretation of getting another At-will (probably TwinStrike) at -5 penalty to hit. Pretty mean, but then again only a striker ranger would get this and they're supposed to be mean.