Level Up (A5E) Heightened Reflexes and spellcasting

[nyarly23]

The Heightened Reflexes maneuver states:

"You gain a number of reactions equal to exertion points spent. You must use these reactions before the start of your next turn."

Can multiple spells with a reaction casting time be cast this way? Is this intended, or could it be an undesired exploit?

 

[Xethreau]

RAW, I don't know of any rule limiting your spells cast as 1 reaction. That's a lot of spellslots.

 

[lichmaster]

Lol, that could be fun!

 

[MarkB]

Ultimately you still need (a) spell slots, (b) spells that are reactions and (c) something to react to, so it shouldn't get too out of hand. It'd be nice to get in some arcane ripostes against an opponent with multiple attacks though.

 

[Legendweaver]

Successively casting Shield to stack up an obscene AC (say in reaction to a series of multi-attack) is just one way this feature seems ripe for abuse.

It may be worth noting that the (O5E) DMG specifically warns against making action economy changes like extra reactions. Quoting from pg. 263: "Beware of adding anything to your game that allows a character to concentrate on more than one effect at a time, use more than one reaction or bonus action per round, or attune to more than three magic items at a time. Rules and game elements that override the rules for concentration, reactions, bonus actions, and magic item attunement can seriously unbalance or overcomplicate your game."

Obviously, the LU designers ignored this guidance in a few cases (Heightened Reflexes, as well as Overclocked Concentration and Duality). I hope they heeded the DMG warning about these changes, thought deeply about the implications and side effects, and hammered hard on them during the playtests...but I think it's more likely these features slipped through the cracks.

The quoted passage indicates that (along with bounded accuracy) the O5E designers view concentration, attunement, and action limits as essential elements of 5E balance. They form a watertight shell that restricts how abilities can interact, and anything that punches a hole in that shell threatens to flood the game with unexpected interactions. Consequently, I personally intend to forbid abilities which alter the core action economy (like Heightened Reflexes). Luckily, all the cases I've found relate to optional (rather than core) class features, so I think they're easy enough to exclude them on a case-by-case basis.

 

[Anselm]

Successively casting Shield to stack up an obscene AC (say in reaction to a series of multi-attack) is just one way this feature seems ripe for abuse.

Multiple casts of the same spell would not be an issue (a la shield) because of the below.

COMBINING MAGICAL EFFECTS (PHB pg 205)
The effects of different spells add together while the durations of those spells overlap. The effects of the same spell cast multiple times don’t combine, however. Instead, the most potent effect—such as the highest bonus—from those castings applies while their durations overlap.

For example, if two clerics cast bless on the same target, that character gains the spell’s benefit only once; he or she doesn’t get to roll two bonus dice.

I cant easily find a similar clause in Level Up so RAW it might be possible though I'd rule the O5E way in It's absence. It's not impossible that there's be additional issues combining multiple reaction spells but it's much less likely.

 

[Anselm]

I cant easily find a similar clause in Level Up so RAW it might be possible though I'd rule the O5E way in It's absence. It's not impossible that there's be additional issues combining multiple reaction spells but it's much less likely.

It does indeed:

However,
multiple castings of the same spell don’t combine.
When two versions of the same spells overlap,
the most powerful effect applies. For instance,
if a creature begins its turn in the area of two
cloudkill spells, one cast at 5th-level and one cast
at 6th-level, it only takes damage from the high-
er-level version of the spell.

Pg 495

 

[nyarly23]

I was thinking more along the lines of instant reaction spells, like Arcane Riposte or Counterspell (yes, very expensive slotwise).

I just find it odd/interesting that a combat maneuver could grant any sort of reactions. I wonder if the intent was to limit the extra reactions to maneuvers? That would seem to fit design-philosophy-wise.

Allowing additional magic reactions seems thematically out-of-sync to me.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Successively casting Shield to stack up an obscene AC (say in reaction to a series of multi-attack) is just one way this feature seems ripe for abuse.

It may be worth noting that the (O5E) DMG specifically warns against making action economy changes like extra reactions. Quoting from pg. 263: "Beware of adding anything to your game that allows a character to concentrate on more than one effect at a time, use more than one reaction or bonus action per round, or attune to more than three magic items at a time. Rules and game elements that override the rules for concentration, reactions, bonus actions, and magic item attunement can seriously unbalance or overcomplicate your game."

Obviously, the LU designers ignored this guidance in a few cases (Heightened Reflexes, as well as Overclocked Concentration and Duality). I hope they heeded the DMG warning about these changes, thought deeply about the implications and side effects, and hammered hard on them during the playtests...but I think it's more likely these features slipped through the cracks.

The quoted passage indicates that (along with bounded accuracy) the O5E designers view concentration, attunement, and action limits as essential elements of 5E balance. They form a watertight shell that restricts how abilities can interact, and anything that punches a hole in that shell threatens to flood the game with unexpected interactions. Consequently, I personally intend to forbid abilities which alter the core action economy (like Heightened Reflexes). Luckily, all the cases I've found relate to optional (rather than core) class features, so I think they're easy enough to exclude them on a case-by-case basis.

See now, I dont actually think WotC knows better about this stuff necessarily. 5e has been out a long time now, and plenty of folks have devoted a great deal of effort towards analyzing the system and seeing what can be done with it. WotC's deeply conservative design inclination has kept them from innovating unless heavily prompted. Plenty of other folks, like the A5e designers, have been doing great work and deserve their chance to try something new.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

It may be worth noting that the (O5E) DMG specifically warns against making action economy changes like extra reactions. Quoting from pg. 263: "Beware of adding anything to your game that allows a character to concentrate on more than one effect at a time, use more than one reaction or bonus action per round, or attune to more than three magic items at a time. Rules and game elements that override the rules for concentration, reactions, bonus actions, and magic item attunement can seriously unbalance or overcomplicate your game."

Obviously, the LU designers ignored this guidance in a few cases (Heightened Reflexes, as well as Overclocked Concentration and Duality). I hope they heeded the DMG warning about these changes, thought deeply about the implications and side effects, and hammered hard on them during the playtests...but I think it's more likely these features slipped through the cracks.

The quoted passage indicates that (along with bounded accuracy) the O5E designers view concentration, attunement, and action limits as essential elements of 5E balance. They form a watertight shell that restricts how abilities can interact, and anything that punches a hole in that shell threatens to flood the game with unexpected interactions. Consequently, I personally intend to forbid abilities which alter the core action economy (like Heightened Reflexes). Luckily, all the cases I've found relate to optional (rather than core) class features, so I think they're easy enough to exclude them on a case-by-case basis.

It’s good to keep in mind, but it’s also worth noting that O5e now includes a subclass or two with extra reactions and a class with extra attunement. I don’t think they‘ve given out extra bonus actions or concentration yet.