Heirophant PrC - Is it a good Choice?

[boolean]

Spell-like Ability can also be good. I'm strongly considering picking up a level to get SLA (Freedom of Movement).

Look Ma, no somatic component!

 

[Nonlethal Force]

As said above - Faith Healing is only out if you are the only LN in your party.

If you are battling undead alot, Gift of the Divine might be nice if there is a high CHA character around who can turn while you do something else. Mastery of Energy could still be useful if fighting undead as well.

Spell-like Ability could be neat. You permanently spend one spell slot to get a spell-like ability of the same thing twice a day (or 4 or six if you allocate high enough slots). It's just like getting a free spell, plus it is an ability and not a spell any more.

So, Divine Reach and Spell-like ability could make it worth two levels (if you aren't fighting undead or else you could easily go four). The thing about Spell-like ability is that it can be taken more than once - so if there are certain spells that you really want to be able to do every day (and potentially a significant amount of times more than once) you could take this one over and over again. Might make it worth it just for the abilities - if you choose wisely.

 

[saucercrab]

I think the hierophant is a very good choice for a cleric or druid at about 18th level. By then, the character has already gotten access to 9th level spells, so the abilities available, if chosen carefully, can really help out (even more than that fact that the character is already a cleric or druid).

IMO, the three most useful of its abilities are:
Divine Reach (as multiple people have stated, is awesome for being able to drop heals & whatnot on allies in melee combat; even better for the druid, who doesn't get mass heal);
Metamagic Feat (clerics & druids are usually very short on feats, & the metamagic ones are very important to help their spellcasting to scale); &
Improved Caster Level (helpful for punching through SR, as always, & this can push the character's caster level above his character level).

The best part of this is that the abilities don't cost permanent spell slots like the archmage's High Arcana do (I much prefer the original archmage to the current one).

 

[Jack Simth]

The best part of this is that the abilities don't cost permanent spell slots like the archmage's High Arcana do (I much prefer the original archmage to the current one).

Ah, but there's a catch; unless you go Epic, they DO cost you spell slots - a Cleric/20 has 4 base spell slots each at 7th, 8th, and 9th spell levels; a Cleric 17/ Hierophant 3 has 3 base 7th slots, 2 base 8th slots, and 1 base 9th slot. Those three special abilities cost the Hierophant 3 9th level spell slots, 2 8th level spell slots, and 1 7th level spell slot. An Archmage, on the other hand (with the exception of the spell-like ability special, of course) loses only a single spell slot for each Archmage special; a Wiz 15/Archmage 5 has 5 (or more, if the archmage takes Spell-like abilities) fewer spell slots than a Wiz/20 ... and those likely at varying levels (e.g., one 9th for Arcane Fire, one 7th for Arcane Reach, 1 8th for Mastery of Elements, 1 6th for Mastery of Shaping and one 5th for Spell Power - the Archmage has lost a single spell of each level at 5th-9th). The Heirophant, meanwhile, with only three levels of the PrC and only three special abilities, has lost 6 spell slots (3 9th, 2 8th, 1 7th).

Mind you, this turns back around if you go epic - A Cleric 20/Heriophant 5 has lost... what? Some turning ability, a point or two of BAB? While a Wiz 20/Archmage 5 has lost 5 (or more) spell slots, plus some Familiar advancement.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Here's the thing. The hierophant has *absolutely no downside* if you take it at epic levels, or if you plan on getting to an epic level. Thus, find out from your DM whether the game will go past 20th level. If it does not, I'd still take precisely one level for Divine Reach. I tend to think that this ability is actually most useful when combined with harm; while not as mighty a strategy as in 3.0, it's still deadly to do 150 hp damage (save half) with a 6th level spell from 30 feet away. I don't think the others are worth it (you're better off taking a level or two of some other PrC if the extra spell slots for Clr18 and 19 are not your bag, but in any case, I think more spells are always superior to the hierophant's abilities).

 

[beaver1024]

The best ability of the Hierophant is the improved caster levels as it can be used to boost the Holy Word series of spells into the stratosphere and pretty much own epic level encounters of the appropriate CR.

 

[Infiniti2000]

With so many PrC's out there that offer full spell progression, it's very hard to justify taking any PrC that doesn't do the same prior to 18th level. I'm with saucercrab in that this PrC is okay for about 2 levels, say 18th and 19th, but before then you should look into things like contemplative, sacred exorcist, radiant servant of pelor, etc.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

See, I disagree with that entirely. Okay, well maybe not entirely - but I can find many places where it wouldn't work.

D&D isn't just about getting all the spells. It isn't about min/maxing. Maybe I am happy to have a character who delays his spell progression for 3-5 levels and gets some cool traits on the side. Sure, that defiantely means that my character is now behind in the spell progression. But maybe the character has an IC reason for wanting to take the stuff that boosts the turning. Or to take the ones that allocate more metamagic options.

I guess what I am saying is that spell progression may be what drives a character concept, but it certainly doesn't have to be. There is nothing wrong with being a level 18 character but not being able to cast the same amount of stuff that a straight cleric 18 could.

To me, PrCs are more about customizing the character to make them unique and fit what I see the character doing - not about just looking for the PrC that gives me the quickest way to a full spell progression and a bunch of cool stuff on the side.

 

[Jack Simth]

Here's the thing. The hierophant has *absolutely no downside* if you take it at epic levels, or if you plan on getting to an epic level.

Actually, there is; or rather, there can be - a Cleric/20 Heirophant 5 has Epic feats from character level only (2; 21st and 24th character level) while a Cleric/25 has the same two Epic feats from character level and a bonus feat from being an Epic Cleric (Cleric 23rd).
Of course, many of those Hierophant abilities are worth more than many Epic Feats.....

 

[saucercrab]

Ah, but there's a catch; unless you go Epic, they DO cost you spell slots - a Cleric/20 has 4 base spell slots each at 7th, 8th, and 9th spell levels; a Cleric 17/ Hierophant 3 has 3 base 7th slots, 2 base 8th slots, and 1 base 9th slot. Those three special abilities cost the Hierophant 3 9th level spell slots, 2 8th level spell slots, and 1 7th level spell slot. An Archmage, on the other hand (with the exception of the spell-like ability special, of course) loses only a single spell slot for each Archmage special; a Wiz 15/Archmage 5 has 5 (or more, if the archmage takes Spell-like abilities) fewer spell slots than a Wiz/20 ... and those likely at varying levels (e.g., one 9th for Arcane Fire, one 7th for Arcane Reach, 1 8th for Mastery of Elements, 1 6th for Mastery of Shaping and one 5th for Spell Power - the Archmage has lost a single spell of each level at 5th-9th). The Heirophant, meanwhile, with only three levels of the PrC and only three special abilities, has lost 6 spell slots (3 9th, 2 8th, 1 7th).

Mind you, this turns back around if you go epic - A Cleric 20/Heriophant 5 has lost... what? Some turning ability, a point or two of BAB? While a Wiz 20/Archmage 5 has lost 5 (or more) spell slots, plus some Familiar advancement.

Pfff', I'm always thinking long-term, so the slots aren't lost, just delayed (my group has reached epic levels more than once; not sure if that's a good thing...). Plus, taking a couple levels of it pre-epic boosts your Fort & Will saves by a point or two.

Infiniti2000,
I meant that hierophant is good to take once the character has hit 18th level. I think maxing out the class is valid, just not all at once (by 25th character level, though, for a clr 20/hie 5, or a clr 8/? PrC 12/hie 5).