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rangerjohn said:
So basically, your saying your characters consider it low class.

No.... Let's go back to my orginal question:

Brother Shatterstone said:
I know my expertise on the Arab lands in question is not that good, much like my knowledge of the Japan and such but I see a lot of the same issues here… Wouldn’t craft: weaponsmithing be frowned upon as a commoner’s job?

See... We are trying to figure out what works in this setting...

rangerjohn said:
Because, I haven't read anywhere of a 'caste' system in Arabia. Niether here or anywhere else.

Can you quote some sources? :)

And why didn't you come out with this in the first place?

rangerjohn said:
But obviously, your characters are free to believe anything they like.
This is more about the society we are trying to mimic...

Goddess FallenAngel said:
So - I believe I am happy with what I have now. :) Thank you for asking, although I would have gotten around to it if I could have reconciled the character and class. ;)

Well I'm glad your happy with what you got but I think you should still let Holly have a say on this. :)
 

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rangerjohn said:
So basically, your saying your characters consider it low class.
:) *blink* Umm, pretty much, as both B.S. and myself have stated. ;)
Brother Shatterstone said:
If you’re a genie-kin who’s proud of your blood would you do something that you had been raised to believe was below you? Your character might, but that doesn't others would.
Goddess FallenAngel said:
...but for mine (and possibly B.S.'s) the character just wouldn't have learned such a thing, because we may have considered it 'low-class'.
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rangerjohn said:
I haven't read anywhere of a 'caste' system in Arabia. Niether here or anywhere else.
Other than the gender-roles, which is a sort of caste system, I believe there was/used to be a religious caste system in RL... but, much like B.S.'s disclaimer, I know very little about Arabian culture, especially as compared to, say, Japanese. ;) It wouldn't surprise me to be wrong. :)
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rangerjohn said:
But obviously, your characters are free to believe anything they like.
Yup, and so are yours! :) That's what makes a roleplaying game so much fun. :)
 


Sources? The usual, I guess. Arabian legends or myths, ala the the Arabian Nights, from book and movies. The Arabian Adventures book for 2ed AD&D. Now I have never studied the actual culture, but the main two societies, I was aware of with caste systems, are India and Japan. Now other societies definately, like to differiate between high and low birth, even the 'ordinary Europeans'. But when it comes to saying that job is beneath someone, I usually think of the above two examples.
 


rangerjohn said:
Sources? The usual, I guess. Arabian legends or myths, ala the the Arabian Nights, from book and movies. The Arabian Adventures book for 2ed AD&D. Now I have never studied the actual culture.

Yeah ditto, both for my own sources and my own knowledge on the true culture.

Anyhow, this isn’t real world, Isida should till us how the society works. :)
 



Ok, to help with this argument, I shall present the Keldev caste system!

High - Vizier (wizard), sorcerer, nobles. Women can be found in these roles and treated the same as men.

High skills: Diplomacy, Bluff, Intimidate, Knowledge (nobility and royalty, others), Gather Information, Profession (courtier), Speak Language.

Priests - Priests and temple guards (psions and psychic warriors). They can be found traveling from city to city as well as in their temples of the Five Pillars.

Priests Skills: Knowledge (religion, local, nobility and royalty, psionics, arcana), Diplomacy, Psicraft, Spellcraft, Concentration.

Merchants - Rich merchants have almost as much power as a noble, and even a poor merchant has an enviable position over most others in a city. They can traffic almost any kind of goods, from gems to wine, animals to slaves

Merchant skills (middle class): Profession (merchant, jeweler, slaver, etc.), Appraise, Bluff, Diplomacy, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Spot, Gather Information, Decipher Script.

High Artisans - These are those that make luxury goods such as silk clothing and royal robes, fine foods, carvings, painting, and frescos, or those who provide valuable services such as doctors, make-up and hair artists, vinters, glass-blowers, sages, bath attendants, massage experts, courtesans, and astronomers.

High Artisan skills: Profession (sewing, cooking, beautician, vinter, astronomer, etc.), Craft (carving, painting, glass-blowing, etc.), Knowledge (cosmology), Heal, Appraise.

Eunuchs and Ghulams (mercenaries) - Eunuchs are mostly harem guards, and valued for their uncompromising values and uncorruptiblity. Some societies of mercenary fighters will become eunuchs to command higher prices, due to the reputation of eunuchs. Ghulams are mercenaries, trained and very dedicated. They trade temporary loyalty for money, and those that betray their oaths to their employers are often killed by other ghulams. Those in the city watch or in the army are considered in this caste.

Eunuch and Ghulam skills: Listen, Spot, Search, Sense Motive, Diplomacy, Knowledge (local, nobility and royalty), Ride, Climb, Jump.

Entertainers - These are often families that travel in troupes between the cities, offering things like juggling, storytelling, music, dancing, poetry, or fire eating. Rarer ones include snake charmers, lion-tamers, or minor magicians. They are considered on par with the low artisans.

Entertainer skills: Bluff, Disguise, Perform (juggling, storytelling, music, dancing, poetry, fire-eating, snake-charming, etc.), Handle Animal, Knowledge (arcana), Spellcraft, Sleight of Hand.

Low artisans - These are the folk that make things for lower classes of society, such as pottery, coarse clothing, beer, cheese, mud bricks, and those that provide services such as being an innkeeper, cobbler, beast trainer or handler, blacksmith/weaponsmith, leatherworker, executioner, jailer, whore, servant, or similar.

Low artisan skills: Craft (pottery, bricks, blacksmith, weaponsmith, leatherworker), Profession (innkeeper, brewer, charcoal burner, tailor, servant, execution, jailer, whore, cobbler, etc.), Handle Animal.

Nessarine and religious hermits (dervishes, fakirs, and sufi) - The Nessarine, not being civilized, are considered below the low artisans in the cities, though above the beggars. However, in the deep desert, their rank can be reversed, as they are the kings of the sands.

Devishes are mystics dedicated to religious fervor, whether that be one of the spirits or of the five pillars. Most are outcasts from their families, and all of them own nothing more than their robes and their begging bowl. They act as teachers and guides, though they have a flexible idea of morality, and some have turned to thievery to keep themselves alive in the cities.

Sufi are those who are seeking religious perfection, a unity with diving being. Many can do astonishing feats of mental and physical prowess through their dedication to their cause. However, some can be dangerous fanatics. Many Sufi have levels in the Contemplative class.

Fakirs are travelers, adventurers, and guides who know the roads of the desert well from their many journeys. They travel from city to city with no purpose other than to expand their minds and to learn. Devoted scholars, the fakirs are resources of lost knowledge, ancient myth, and other ancient information as well as more modern knowledge. Some are wandering magicians, trading their in exchange for food or shelter, and othersare scribes, lending their ability to read and write to the masses that have no such education.

Nessarine skills: Survival, Knowledge (nature, cosmology, religion), Handle Animal, Balance, Climb, Heal, Hide, Jump, Ride, Spot, Listen.

Religious hermit skills: Knowledge (religion, local, history, geography, arcana, nearly everything else), Profession (scribe), Speak Language, Decipher Script, Sense Motive, Diplomacy, Bluff.

Beggars, assassins, thieves, and the unskilled - Those who learn no trade are known as the unskilled and are relegated to the worst jobs in the city, street sweeping, shoveling dung, laborer, porter, grave-digger, and other such undesirable jobs. Those even worse off than the unskilled are the beggars; those too young, too old, too sick or hurt, too addled with drink or drug to hold any kind of job. They are seen on every street corner begging for crusts of bread and copper coins.

Assassins and thieves, along with smugglers and other criminals make up the lowest rung of society, even though they often live as if they were much higher. One of these creatures can often be killed with little retribution from anyone, and perhaps even accolades. The unlucky could get maimed as a result of being caught (having hands, noses, or ears cut off is common) and end up as a beggar.

Unskilled and beggar skills: Profession (porter, beggar, cleaner, shoveler, grave-digger, etc).

Thief skills: Sleight of Hand, Hide, Move Silently, Listen, Spot, Search, Profession (fence, jeweler, goldsmith, etc.), Appraise, Climb, Open Lock, Disable Device, Forgery, Decipher Script, Intimidate, Disguise, etc.
 

Isida Kep'Tukari said:
Ok, to help with this argument, I shall present the Keldev caste system!
Yay! :)

A comment first, I think you forgot to mention the sultans, and there families, or do they belong to the high class? (I just assumed since there in charge they would be on a higher tier.)

I see no mention of the harem besides the low artisans, and the typical whore... Do the girls in the harem rank at this level, or higher/lower?

I see that weaponsmithing is a low artisan skill; will this have any effect upon the PrCs I mentioned? (Maybe having more than one-way into it?)

That's all I can think of for now but I give it some more thought... :)

PS I deleted my first post in this thread so please fill free to expand to your second post. (Your first post is now 15 pages; I know this as I printed it again from work this morning)
 
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