Held and reflex saves
- Thread starter Prizdar
- Start date
Hypersmurf
Moderatarrrrh...
Prizdar said:
See why I said "Uh-oh"?
-Hyp.
Ridley's Cohort
First Post
Re: Re
"Other opposed checks" is exactly what the designers didn't want to penalize when specifying AC. From a rules sanity POV don't open that can labelled 'Worms'.
Do you get Dex modifiers to Initiative when flatfooted? Do you get Dex to other skills? Riding? Move Silently? How about resisting trip attempts?
The fundamental mechanics and style of D&D assume that characters, even flatfooted or helpless ones, possess substantial inherent defenses. Those defenses are primarily related by HPs and saves. Heavy penalties to the Reflex save for being flatfooted don't make more sense that penalties to HPs or Will or Fort. It is entirely logical to give a Will save penalty to surprised characters, but it also a very bad idea.
Celtavian said:
"Other opposed checks" is exactly what the designers didn't want to penalize when specifying AC. From a rules sanity POV don't open that can labelled 'Worms'.
Do you get Dex modifiers to Initiative when flatfooted? Do you get Dex to other skills? Riding? Move Silently? How about resisting trip attempts?
The fundamental mechanics and style of D&D assume that characters, even flatfooted or helpless ones, possess substantial inherent defenses. Those defenses are primarily related by HPs and saves. Heavy penalties to the Reflex save for being flatfooted don't make more sense that penalties to HPs or Will or Fort. It is entirely logical to give a Will save penalty to surprised characters, but it also a very bad idea.
Norfleet
First Post
Somebody who can't move obviously shouldn't get a reflex save. I mean, how would that work, anyway? You fireball a guy who's paralyzed and unable to move, and he somehow manages to duck and roll with the blast? It gets even sillier with evasion.
It's like the fireballing of the sleeping noble with evasion, to find that he is now under the bed, having completely escaped the blast, and is now under the bed, still asleep.
Anyone who thinks characters who are unable to move, such as held, paralyzed, hogtied to a chair, etc., probably also thinks that "bucket of snails" is a legitimate tactic.
It's like the fireballing of the sleeping noble with evasion, to find that he is now under the bed, having completely escaped the blast, and is now under the bed, still asleep.
Anyone who thinks characters who are unable to move, such as held, paralyzed, hogtied to a chair, etc., probably also thinks that "bucket of snails" is a legitimate tactic.
Re
It does not require quick movement to dodge a fireball or lightning bolt? Say, much quicker movement than to dodge a sword blow or arrow shot. Want to bet on that?
You could react instinctively to melee blows or arrow shots as well. In fact, a trained fighter in real life would react much more quickly to a physical blow than say a gunshot or grenade.
If you are going to lose AC for physical attacks, it is logical that you would lose Dex to reflex save for even faster acting ENERGY or SPELL attacks.
As far as I am concerned, it is another of those non-sensical ways that the game designers are balancing the power of melee attacks against the power of spell attacks.
As I stated above, it would be easier to react to a physical blow or arrow shot than an energy or spell blast. Easier, not more difficult. As in you shouldn't lose your dex bonus to AC for physical attacks while retaining it against energy or spell attacks which move much faster.
It won't in our games either. It is an illogical and imperfect rule that I can prove in the real world. I definitely like to use my own experience to enhance my game, especially when I can easily create experiments to show that I am correct.
It does not require quick movement to dodge a fireball or lightning bolt? Say, much quicker movement than to dodge a sword blow or arrow shot. Want to bet on that?
You could react instinctively to melee blows or arrow shots as well. In fact, a trained fighter in real life would react much more quickly to a physical blow than say a gunshot or grenade.
If you are going to lose AC for physical attacks, it is logical that you would lose Dex to reflex save for even faster acting ENERGY or SPELL attacks.
As far as I am concerned, it is another of those non-sensical ways that the game designers are balancing the power of melee attacks against the power of spell attacks.
As I stated above, it would be easier to react to a physical blow or arrow shot than an energy or spell blast. Easier, not more difficult. As in you shouldn't lose your dex bonus to AC for physical attacks while retaining it against energy or spell attacks which move much faster.
It won't in our games either. It is an illogical and imperfect rule that I can prove in the real world. I definitely like to use my own experience to enhance my game, especially when I can easily create experiments to show that I am correct.
Hypersmurf
Moderatarrrrh...
Re: Re
"First, I'll get Bob to throw a knife at me when I'm not expecting it."
"... ow."
"Now I'll get Frank to cast a magical Fireball."
"... well, Frank? I'm waiting..."
-Hyp.
"First, I'll get Bob to throw a knife at me when I'm not expecting it."
"... ow."
"Now I'll get Frank to cast a magical Fireball."
"... well, Frank? I'm waiting..."
-Hyp.
Re
Let me see, high level rogue with favorable reflex save, magic items and UNCANNY DODGE. Hmmm, rogues in my campaign aren't flat-footed very often as in never.
Now a monk on the other hand it might work against. Since a high level monk still gets a save, has improved evasion, spell resistance, and usually quite a few good magic items, it usually isn't an issue because it is the only spell that has a somewhat decent chance of landing.
Now the other classes are usually a little unhappy, especially divine and arcane casters, but after a few times of getting blasted badly, they start erecting defenses and making sure to do advance scouting to ensure they don't get caught flat-footed.
Let me see, high level rogue with favorable reflex save, magic items and UNCANNY DODGE. Hmmm, rogues in my campaign aren't flat-footed very often as in never.
Now a monk on the other hand it might work against. Since a high level monk still gets a save, has improved evasion, spell resistance, and usually quite a few good magic items, it usually isn't an issue because it is the only spell that has a somewhat decent chance of landing.
Now the other classes are usually a little unhappy, especially divine and arcane casters, but after a few times of getting blasted badly, they start erecting defenses and making sure to do advance scouting to ensure they don't get caught flat-footed.
Re
"Can of worms" is already open. Myself and one of the other players like to fight and have experience with firearms, hand-to-hand weapons and martial skills. We read alot of military and fighting books. We like to apply this knowledge as much as possible in our games. We feel if that there is such a thing as being caught "flat-footed" in real life, and that it would affect every aspect of your defense. That is our call based upon experience.
You do get dex modifiers to initiative because you are determining who reacts first. Initiative determines who is caught "flat-footed" in that first round. When initiative is rolled, in the abstract game of D&D, neither side is "flat-footed".
If your third point is true, then it is entirely illogical to deny dex bonus to AC for the same reasons.
I don't see how giving a will save penalty for being "flat-footed" is logical. The will of a person is not determined by their awareness. It matters not whether you are ready or not to resist mental domination, you will attempt to do so irregardless of awareness. Now a will save penalty for torture might be a different story as continued torture can reduce mental resistance.
"Can of worms" is already open. Myself and one of the other players like to fight and have experience with firearms, hand-to-hand weapons and martial skills. We read alot of military and fighting books. We like to apply this knowledge as much as possible in our games. We feel if that there is such a thing as being caught "flat-footed" in real life, and that it would affect every aspect of your defense. That is our call based upon experience.
You do get dex modifiers to initiative because you are determining who reacts first. Initiative determines who is caught "flat-footed" in that first round. When initiative is rolled, in the abstract game of D&D, neither side is "flat-footed".
If your third point is true, then it is entirely illogical to deny dex bonus to AC for the same reasons.
I don't see how giving a will save penalty for being "flat-footed" is logical. The will of a person is not determined by their awareness. It matters not whether you are ready or not to resist mental domination, you will attempt to do so irregardless of awareness. Now a will save penalty for torture might be a different story as continued torture can reduce mental resistance.
Re
Hypersmurf,
As I stated, if you want to test what I am asserting, then I suggest you use water balloons or a hose.
Molatov cocktails, grenades, firearms and incendinary explosives are rather impractical and you won't live to tell me whether it is more difficult to avoid them when caught by surprise.
I think D&D is rather generous in allowing the avoidance of any type of damage. I think our choice of disallowing a dex bonus to reflex save is a simple, but effective means of increasing the deadliness of certain attacks without going overboard.
Hypersmurf,
As I stated, if you want to test what I am asserting, then I suggest you use water balloons or a hose.
Molatov cocktails, grenades, firearms and incendinary explosives are rather impractical and you won't live to tell me whether it is more difficult to avoid them when caught by surprise.
I think D&D is rather generous in allowing the avoidance of any type of damage. I think our choice of disallowing a dex bonus to reflex save is a simple, but effective means of increasing the deadliness of certain attacks without going overboard.
