Held and reflex saves

[Celtavian]

Re

I described his action as drawing the sword from the scabbard at his back with the edge through the first rat while breaking the skull of the second one with the pommel.

I can see this as a Cleave attack as well.


The situation where we didn't apply the Cleave attack was two stirges attached to different parts of the body. One on the arm and one near the abdomen area.

The character in question used his hand to crush the one on his arm. The player himself decided not to use Cleave because it didn't seem reasonable to be able to Cleave through the bird on the arm and strike the one on the abdomen in one blow.

Our vision of Cleave attacks comes from books and movies. Those flicks where you see someone cut two heads off in one blow or shatter several swords (cleave and sunder action). We keep that in mind when applying Cleave and Great Cleave attacks.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I am fond of describing the cleave of our longspear-wielding barbarian as "You skever two enemies on your spear".

But unless you're larger than size Medium or have Supreme Cleave, there's no way you can threaten two enemies in a straight line with your spear.

It is more important that I apply rules consistently than that I apply the official rule or spend too much time looking up a specific rule or series of rules to apply to a situation.

But feats, spells, and abilities are balanced on mechanics, not flavour. If you ignore the mechanics, balance is affected.

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Re: Re

Our vision of Cleave attacks comes from books and movies. Those flicks where you see someone cut two heads off in one blow or shatter several swords (cleave and sunder action). We keep that in mind when applying Cleave and Great Cleave attacks.

Inigo Montoya versus Count Rugen's Guards - Great Cleaving off an AoO.

(Oh, and you can't Strike a Weapon on a Cleave - by Table 8-4, it's a separate Standard Action, unlike Trip, Grapple, or Disarm.)

-Hyp.

 

[Fenes 2]

But unless you're larger than size Medium or have Supreme Cleave, there's no way you can threaten two enemies in a straight line with your spear.

As I said, we don't use a battlemap, hexes or anything like that. If the barbarian can cleave, then I assume the enemies were standing in a way to make it possible, even if only for that moment. Maybe the one behind was passing through the space occupied by the first target just when that one got killed.

 

[Celtavian]

Re

(Oh, and you can't Strike a Weapon on a Cleave - by Table 8-4, it's a separate Standard Action, unlike Trip, Grapple, or Disarm.)

There is that amusing little word used by rules lawyers, "can't".

We allow this in our games. It looks cool, that is what we care about.

But feats, spells, and abilities are balanced on mechanics, not flavour. If you ignore the mechanics, balance is affected.

Imbalanced is not giving a saving throw for Harm. The changes we make do not in anyway, shape, or form affect the fun of the game, which is our primary determinant for balance.

We ask ourselves, does this change or application of the rules affect our fun playing the game or enhance it? That is how we determine balance.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Re: Re

There is that amusing little word used by rules lawyers, "can't".

You know you're belittling rules lawyers here on our home territory, right?

-Hyp.

 

[Celtavian]

Re

But unless you're larger than size Medium or have Supreme Cleave, there's no way you can threaten two enemies in a straight line with your spear.

The combatants are constantly moving. If you look at things like you seem to, then you may not be able to imagine this happening. If you look at a combat as it would be, with people constantly moving about, it wouldn't be that hard for a person to move for a second to skewer two people in a row.

The combatants are not standing in one spot as much as the representation on the map may look. Combatants are controlling a single series of combat spaces within a given area, and in real combat, they could be in any of those spaces at a given time. For the sake of simplicity, a marker on the map shows their basic position.

I think the game designers understand this, but had to use a system that was simple and leave the rest up to the players imagination and personal knowledge of combat.

 

[Darklone]

Re: Re: Re

Inigo Montoya versus Count Rugen's Guards - Great Cleaving off an AoO.

-Hyp.

Oh yeah, that was a NICE discussion we had as 3rd ed came out... "Was this a Great Cleave or a Whirlwind Attack????"

Well, IMHO it was...

Btw, Hyp, I don't agree with the AoO, I think it was a readied action because he used a 5ft step....

 

[Hypersmurf]

Re: Re

Combatants are controlling a single series of combat spaces within a given area, and in real combat, they could be in any of those spaces at a given time. For the sake of simplicity, a marker on the map shows their basic position.

That view makes Supreme Cleave useless, since the whole point of it is moving from one space to another between Cleaves.

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Re: Re: Re: Re

Btw, Hyp, I don't agree with the AoO, I think it was a readied action because he used a 5ft step....

I'd need to watch it again, but from memory, he doesn't leave his own square - he allows the Guard past on the Overrun, and takes the AoO

But it could be interpreted in several different ways. Flavour doesn't dictate mechanics

-Hyp.