Hello, I am lawyer with a PSA: almost everyone is wrong about the OGL and SRD. Clearing up confusion.

[glass]

for which we have no evidence at all, and the fact that the edition was killed so fast basically points to the opposite.

The evidence is not available any more, but it was there.

We can go in circles on this all day long, or we move on and focus on something more productive…

As soon as people stop pushing the lie that 4e did not sell, I will stop correcting them....

It's working for WotC even as we exchanges message board posts! The fact that the powers that WotC is purporting to exercise are not ones that it enjoys under the OGL aren't stopping it from purporting to exercise them.

WotC has the legal right to issue new versions of the licence, and at least a fig leaf of a legal theory regarding "de-authorisation". A hypothetical future evil Paizo would not even have that much with regards to ORC, if Azora Law does their job right.

You are right that nothing can absolutely prevent bad-faith actors from acting in bad faith. But you can certainly make it harder. The OGL made it hard, but clearly not hard enough. With the benefit of 23 years of hindsight, ORC can do better.

 

[pemerton]

What if the ogl community doesn’t actually have as much impact on WotC’s bottom line as people seem to think? The ogl 3pp go off with ORC and abandon DnD.

And WotC waves goodbye as they leave. They get everything they wanted - total control over DnD going forward. The 3pp fade even further into obscurity as WotC just builds a platform for DnD that doesn’t include any 3pp.

To me, the departure of 3PP that you describe seems to be WotC's immediate goal, and they seem to be achieving it.

Whether that is a medium-to-long term commercial benefit or detriment to WotC I have no view.

I have read many posts on these boards, over the past 5 to 10 years, telling me that D&D 5e's market dominance is not a result of structural features of the market, but its quality and appeal as a RPG. But now the majority opinion seems to be that structural market features will make people stop playing D&D and start playing ORC-licensed games instead.

Or else, perhaps, give up RPGing altogether? But will people really abandon RPGing altogether because they don't like WotC's approach to licensing?

 

[Ruin Explorer]

To me, the departure of 3PP that you describe seems to be WotC's immediate goal, and they seem to be achieving it.

It definitely wasn't.

You can see that from how they've fallen back from the initial position. If that really was their goal, one thing they would have stuck to was the royalties.

I have read many posts on these boards, over the past 5 to 10 years, telling me that D&D 5e's market dominance is not a result of structural features of the market, but its quality and appeal as a RPG. But now the majority opinion seems to be that structural market features will make people stop playing D&D and start playing ORC-licensed games instead.

I think this is unfair in that this is a description of your own perceptions rather than any realities of the board.

Whilst I've always said D&D's success was more about structural market features than the quality of the RPG (which isn't to insult D&D in any way, note, I would say it's a good-quality RPG), it's actually the case that he same people who were saying D&D's success was due to quality primarily, with structural market features playing a lesser or even no role, are now saying "The OGL doesn't matter that much, this is a dumb move but it won't kill D&D".

So you're conflating a bunch of different people here. I'm going to call two people out in fact, hopefully they're cool with that - @Oofta and @Parmandur have both maintained, as far as I know, that 5E's success was primarily or entirely a reflection of the quality of 5E, certainly more than structural market factors, and both of them, and correct me if I'm wrong guys, maintain most people are not going to stop playing D&D as a result of the OGL stuff.

I don't think there was ever a majority opinion re: 5E's quality being more important than structural factors, I think it's more like most people didn't care, and 5E is was clearly a "good" quality RPG in terms of rules, and a very high quality one in terms of physical/artistic qualities of the materials (relative to the rest of the industry - albeit there has been some amazing catching up on that side in the last 2-3 years).

 

[masdog]

Then when I went to cancel they gave me the option of a discount and I caved...

I mean...if they're going to give you a discount, you might as well keep it for another year.

Might be worth looking at.

If you're like me, you're pretty skeptical of people coming at you with Adobe alternatives. I don't know how many times I've been told a product is a perfect photoshop replacement or clone by people who have only a superficial understanding of photoshop. I have never seen anything that replaces adobe creative software exactly, but this suite looks promising. You didn't say anything about video or animation, but I have suggestions for that too if you want it.

Affinity has some nice software, and even though its not a drop-in replacement for Creative Cloud (and let's be honest, nothing is...), it has one benefit. It's a perpetual license. No yearly subscription fees.

 

[BrokenTwin]

Affinity – Professional Creative Software

From the smoothest photo editing and design software to next-gen page layout, Affinity is pushing the boundaries of what’s possible with creative technology.

affinity.serif.com

Might be worth looking at.

If you're like me, you're pretty skeptical of people coming at you with Adobe alternatives. I don't know how many times I've been told a product is a perfect photoshop replacement or clone by people who have only a superficial understanding of photoshop. I have never seen anything that replaces adobe creative software exactly, but this suite looks promising. You didn't say anything about video or animation, but I have suggestions for that too if you want it.

I got really excited for a second, then discovered they don't list a Linux option. Ah well, still looks like a solid option for the rest of you.

 

[robconley]

The terms of a licence can't stop anyone doing anything. They are inert legal norms.

I mean, the terms of the OGL prohibit WotC doing what it is currently purporting to do, but it is going right on ahead!

What makes legal prohibitions effective, when actors that they bind choose to ignore them, is enforcement. If no one is willing to sue then the terms are meaningless.

My point is that while what you state is possible, it is not reasonable given Paizo's past behavior.

The end result of your views on this topic is not to use any open content like Blackmarsh as I or my heirs may decide to act like naughty words and start sending out Cease & Desists, DMCAs, and/or lawsuits, despite the clear wording in both licenses I used.

A situation that would please the major IP holders as it will turn the creative landscape into a series of walled gardens and isolated islands full of people too afraid to exercise their right to use our common cultural heritage.

Since this is a social problem of bad behavior rather than a legal problem, then it is best handled as a social issue with individuals and communities saying "No! Your behavior is unacceptable. If you persist in this, we will refuse to do business with you".

 

[mamba]

That’s kinda the fear in the back of my head. Everyone seems to think that the ogl community is holding four aces. But what if they’re wrong?

What if the ogl community doesn’t actually have as much impact on WotC’s bottom line as people seem to think? The ogl 3pp go off with ORC and abandon DnD.

And WotC waves goodbye as they leave. They get everything they wanted - total control over DnD going forward. The 3pp fade even further into obscurity as WotC just builds a platform for DnD that doesn’t include any 3pp.

That’s my fear.

Well, then you should try to convince WotC to not go there and cancel your DDB subscription, if you have one, to make your voice heard.

Instead I see you here defending WotC all the way and saying we should wait, and ascribe the best possible interpretation to everything they do, far past a reasonable point.

Also, no one thinks the 3pp are in a position of strength here, some however do believe that this will do more damage to WotC than WotC realizes. Not the same thing.

 

[mamba]

The evidence is not available any more, but it was there.

convenient…then what is your explanation for why product lines were scrapped and the whole edition buried in the backyard just a few years in?

 

[mamba]

It definitely wasn't.

what do you base that on, I also see this as the intended outcome. Maybe not for all of them to leave, although this is perfectly acceptable, but if 95% of the smaller ones disappeared, WotC would not shed a tear.

I have no other explanation for the 1.1 terms

You can see that from how they've fallen back from the initial position. If that really was their goal, one thing they would have stuck to was the royalties.

they fell back because of customer feedback

 

[mamba]

My point is that while what you state is possible, it is not reasonable given Paizo's past behavior.

you would have said the same thing about WotC and the OGL just a few months ago