Help a DM w/ Character Creation

[Tas]

Okay, I'm not 100% sure if this should go in this forum or the general one, since it does deal with character creation (i.e. rolling stats) The question is as such:

I've been running some HERO system games for awhile now, and was drafted to get back into D&D with another group of friends when the current DM we are with decided at the end ofthe last adventure to hang his hat up for awhile. So, since I was a little pumped about Ebberon, so I decided to start up a campaign there. We were going over character creation and stuff. I give them simple baselines for character generation: 28 pts or standard roll. Everyone decides to roll, since point buy characters are "too weak". Two players then promptly roll characters in the 40-45 point region, while two more roll in the 14-15 point region. One has the average of 28 points on the dot. I suggest that the two that are really below average take the pt. buy. They both complain about it. I give them a chance to reroll characters. They do, and do marginally better (25 and 14 IIRC)

They go on me that their charcters will be useless, that it takes too many pts to get an 18, ect. They suggest that they reroll their characters until they get stats they like. I respond by telling them that doing so is equivilent to writing down whatever stas they want on a character. I am trying as hard as I can to not be critical of them about this, but in the end it seems very odd to say that a character needs an 18 in this edition especially to be competitive. What would you guys suggest I do to rectify the situation?

Tas

 

[sledged]

My players only get to reroll if a) the highest stat is 13 or less, or b) total ability modifers add up to be less than +5.

 

[mikebr99]

I think you'd be better off to have everyone scrap their rolls and pick new stats with a 30 point buy... YMMV


Mike

 

[Tas]

I think you'd be better off to have everyone scrap their rolls and pick new stats with a 30 point buy... YMMV


Mike

That was my original plan, but everyone involved on the player side of things didn't want it. The guys who rolled well wanted to keep their characters, and the guys that didn't told me that point buy at any level I remember being reasonable (28-30) was waay too low, since that meant "an 18, a 16, and a bunch of crap" I tried to explain that you don't need an 18 at the start even with a caster, but everyone is convinced their DC's will suck otherwise. I wonder why they always want random stuff if they are only willing to put up with the better half of random (i.e. above average)

Tas

 

[sledged]

That was my original plan, but everyone involved on the player side of things didn't want it. The guys who rolled well wanted to keep their characters, and the guys that didn't told me that point buy at any level I remember being reasonable (28-30) was waay too low, since that meant "an 18, a 16, and a bunch of crap" I tried to explain that you don't need an 18 at the start even with a caster, but everyone is convinced their DC's will suck otherwise.

I've found there's a lot you can do with the standard NPC ability point spread: 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8. I've considered making my players create all their characters with this spread. Whatever you decide to do with your players' character generation, just remember: you're the DM. No matter how much they whine, you still have final say. The only thing they can do is refuse to play.

I wonder why they always want random stuff if they are only willing to put up with the better half of random (i.e. above average)

It's not unreasonable to want a character with above average stats. In fact the PHB says, "The average ability score for typical commoner is 10, or 11, but your characters are not typical. The most common ability score for player characters (PCs) are 12, and 13. (That's right, the average player character is above average.)" But wanting an 18 stat from the start everytime...

 

[MichaelH]

I think that if they chose to roll the dice for ability scores, then they must also live with the results of their rolls, whether high or low. According to the PH (pg. 8), one can reroll if the ability scores are too low, however.

If they push the issue, just tell them to make 40 point characters. Then be sure to adjust the monster/bad guy's stats, too, and max out their hit points. That should even out the high powered PC's.

 

[Feyd Rautha]

Ahh... the problem of bad rolling players and good rolling players clashing... Okay. This is a problem. Obviously you have a group of powergamers on your hands. If 28 points on a point buy system is not enough for them then that pretty much seals it. As a part-time powergamer myself here are some options I suggest for your game so there aren't any hissy fights or temper tantrums over "this guy being better than me".

Option 1: Roll 4d6, drop the lowest, reroll 1's: This is canon for games I play. If you don't roll over 28 points on stats with this then you should probably take the fatespinner class because your such a bad dice roller that you're going to need all the help you can get. In fact, you should roll for the DM and all the players would LOVE you. Anyway, you might not get an 18 with this spread, but you should very well get a couple 16 or higher stats which is just as good IMHO.

Option 2: All roll stats using 3d6 straight, then take the highest point buy total and apply to all characters: This is a very fair way to handle the situation. The best roller in your group helps all the other players out as the point buy cost of one player (even rolling 3d6 plain) should very well be in the high 30's or low 40's. All the players then get to use that score for their stats. Everybody has the same points so everybody should be happy.

Option 3: Give the players the option of +10 in bonuses distributed as they see fit as well as 3 "floating" points: This one is a little odd, but it's easier than it sounds. Each player gets +10 worth of ability bonus that they can distribute (before racial mods). The highest they can put on one stat is 18 (or +4). This will ensure the players a healthy, "heroic" even, bonus that they can start play with and should silence any complaints. After the +'s are assigned, the characters have three "floating" points that they use to make three stats odd numbered. This makes the spread less mechanical in feel and gives them a leg up for that 4th level stat bump. Note: a player can also go down to a -1 penalty in a stat to give himself an extra +1 in another area. It allows for a little min/maxing, but make sure that the lowest stat is an 8 because otherwise you're going to have a bunch of 4 int fighters with 18 in every other stat! For example, Adarin the Rogue assigns a +4 bonus to his Dexterity, a +2 bonus to his Charisma, Strength, and Intelligence, a -1 penalty to his Wisdom, and thereby a +1 bonus to his Constitution. This leaves him with S: 14 D: 18 Co: 12 I: 14 W: 8 Ch: 14. He then adds his three "floating" points in to give him 19 Dex, 13 Con, and 15 Charisma. He then applies his racial template and voila. A strong character (you don't have to take penalties I just find it fun sometimes) and less complaints from its player.

Option 4: Forced point buy: I really think your players would benefit from playing a 25 point buy game for a little while. It will be like pulling teeth trying to get them to do it, but if you can assure them enough and get them on board they will come to realize that stats aren't everything. You'd have to softball it a little bit to start so they wouldn't get all frustrated and quit, but eventually they will really start to develop better playing skills as a result of having to think around their lower stats. Alternatively, you could just give them 32-40 points in a point buy and everyone will be happy.

As for your players whining and moaning make one of them be the DM then. If you have to play subject to their whims then you won't have any authority as a DM and you really shouldn't do it. If they aren't going to play by your rules then you are not going to be able to play an effective session. If they refuse to play then they refuse to play. There are a lot of other games out there to play and I'm sure since you have Hero system you'd be perfectly fine running them through that. Remember!!! You are the Game MASTER. They are playing YOUR game not their own. You must always do as you see fit and you must also be prepared to scrap the game if you don't think it is going to work (which right now is your obvious concern).

One last note, unless a player agrees to it or the strongest player at the table (rules knowledge, tactical mind, creative roleplaying) rolled the lowest stats then DO NOT allow a huge gap in statistics. It will throw the game for a loop. You might approach your strongest players and talk to thm about this, but otherwise try to get everyone on equal footing because at the level your players appear to be at they're not about doing anything subtly or small.

Peace,

 

[Len]

I wonder why they always want random stuff if they are only willing to put up with the better half of random (i.e. above average)

I wonder why some people seem to think that if their character is stronger the fights will be easier. Duh.

Let them re-roll until they're happy. Then kill off their first-level characters with a red dragon and hand them new character sheets with 28-point stats filled in.

 

[Kalendraf]

I think mixing point buy with dice rolling for character generation is a bad idea. Either use one or the other. I used to always use rolling, but I'm now a huge fan of point buy, since I've seen how unbalancing the rolling method can wind up being.

Players who complain about 28 points for point buy are just being immature whiners. Tell them to get over it. Mature gamers wouldn't complain about something like that. If you feel the need to appease them, try 30 or 31, but I wouldn't recommend going any higher.

 

[Artoomis]

We use 32 points and find this works very, very well.

This still requires hard decisions, but no one ever gets a character that shines way above enveryone else in all areas, and no one ever gets a "throw-away" character.

You're the DM. Solving this issue is part of your job as DM. I suggest you simply declare, "this is the way we are gernerating stats in my campaign," and close the discussion. Do not give any choices on this to the players. There will be some initial grumbling, but they'll get over it.

We also use max hit points for first two levels, and then 3/4 after that - that is, Wizards get 3 hp per level, clerics get 6, fighters get 7. We really like that method, too.

As a group, we feel that things the player needs to live with in the long term should not be random - too often someone does ludicrously well and someone else does ludicrously poorly.