Help build 9th level monk.

[Lamoni]

Well, since we are starting our campaign a little later than expected, I have more time to try and help the party's monk. However I don't really know what advice to give her. Monk's seem very difficult to play.

Things that I read about monk's say to play to their strengths, but also to remember that you aren't a tank and therefore to avoid staying in melee. Sounds like good advice, but isn't the monk's flurry ability one of their strengths? Having no need of weapons is also a strength, but doesn't that force them into melee without the HP or AC to survive?

Anyway, I did have several ideas and there are some basic decisions that were fairly easy to make like choosing stunning fist and combat expertise. However choosing between trip and disarm is more difficult since we never used trip and only tried to disarm someone (unsuccessfully) one time.

The monk is starting at 9th level, will be human, and we have access to Complete Warrior and Oriental Adventures (actually the DM has access to them and we are allowed to use things from them). I also don't remember the exact stats, but she did roll high and you can assume the following 17, 17, 16, 13, 13, 11. One decision she has made is to ignore ranged combat and rely on speed on the ground or a fly spell for flying opponents so no need to spend a feat on martial weapon proficiency (longbow).

Any advice you can give will help, but I am looking for both feats and ideas on how to play them that will make the monk effective in combat without dying. The other party members will be a half-dragon barbarian, a sorcerer with a rogue cohort (who prefers to hide during battles), and an NPC cleric that we can count on to help heal, but not much else. I can give more information if you need it, but I think I'll stop now before I make the post too long with thoughts and build ideas that I already scrapped.

 

[Shadeus]

Spring attack is your friend. A monk without it is just suicidal. Yes, flurry of blows is their main full-round attack. But you need to be very careful about using it because staying in one place is often fatal. For example, going one-on-one with a fighter-type will get you killed. But if the fighter is already engaging someone else, then the enemy will be less concerned with you, that is until you trip them to the ground and pummel them with d10 fists and feet.

Monks are wizard-killers. Move up to one and hit them with a stunning blow. Nothing like forcing a wizard to make a Fort save. And at 9th-level, you can have 9 of them (more with the extra stunning feat).

Use your incredible movement to your advantage and keep out of range of everyone. Manuever around the battle field using tumble to avoid AoOs and put the rogue in flank.

To be a melee monk, you need a high Str, Dex, and Wis. With that amazing roll, I'd go S 18 D 16 C 13 I 13 W 18 Ch 11 (including level adjustments). That's AC 18, 19 with dodge without a single item. Stunning Fist DC: 18.

 

[Lamoni]

All good advice and thanks for the reply.

Spring attack is your friend.
...snip...
Use your incredible movement to your advantage and keep out of range of everyone. Manuever around the battle field using tumble to avoid AoOs and put the rogue in flank.

Can you use tumble in combination with spring attack? So you can move in, attack, then tumble away without provoking an attack of opportunity?

Spring attack requires dodge, and that takes up 2 feat slots. How about the other 2, any suggestions? I was going to recommend axiomatic strike at 12th level so a feat that converts stunning fist into other abilities looks like less of a good idea... however pain touch looks appealing.

Also in regards to trip vs. disarm. Disarm is great if we really want to take someone alive... but a stun or spell from the wizard could also work. Is trip that beneficial? It seems to me like tripping can often be harder to accomplish than just a normal attack and even if you succeed it just gives you an attack of opportunity against a reduced AC. Therefore my characters have always ignored it and just done damage instead... except for my dire wolf which got a free attempt with each successful attack. Unfortunately, very few of those attempts were successful.

Then there is still the question of items. I was recommending a monk's belt... but is there a better choice? Or any good items to go along with that?

 

[MichaelH]

The monk in one of my games has done well with Dodge, Mobility, and Spring Attack as a feat chain. He chose Stunning Fist, Combat Reflexes, and Improved Trip as bonus feats. He also has Improved Grapple and Weapon Focus (unarmed strike). That was his 9th level repertoire.

He usually attempts to stun an opponent he thinks has a low Fort save (like a wizard) using Spring Attack. He grapples those foes alot, too. He will try to trip on occasion, but not as often as his stuns or grapples. He has maxed out Jump, Tumble, Escape Artist, and Balance, which he uses constantly.

Oh, and you can use Tumble and Spring Attack together, but you don't need to Tumble to avoid an AoO against your target since Spring Attack does not allow your target an AoO against you, even when you move away after your attack and even if he has reach. But you may provoke an AoO from creatures other than your target normally. If you would provoke an AoO from one of them by your movement, you may use the Tumble skill normally to avoid that AoO. You may even use the Tumble skill to move through an enemy in order to Spring Attack your target, but if you fail the skill check you cannot keep moving to your target and you provoke an AoO.

Hope that helps.

 

[Lamoni]

Hope that helps.

It does help. I just wish Mobility wasn't required in the chain. The rogue in our last group took this route and almost never used mobility due to tumble. With the monk having a base speed of 60, moving at half speed to avoid AoO's usually isn't a big deal. Anyway spring attack does sound useful... it would just be more useful if it could be used with a charge and a flying kick. That would be a nice boost.

Sorry for the tangent. Your advice has really helped. I was reluctant to suggest the spring attack route because dodge and mobility are not too useful, but I think I will suggest them now. And if she ever succeeds on a stunning fist, she doesn't have to spring away and can flurry the next round. Are there no other good feats in Oriental Adventures? Since it is at the DM's house I can't look through it myself.

 

[two]

Spring attack for monks....eh.

I've always hated monks that spring attack. Woo-hoo! My Monk darts in, attacks once, and does something like 1d10 + 3 or 1d10+4 points of damage. Then springs back out. Maybe 1d10 +5 on a good day. That's, what, 12 points of damage per round, on a good round? At this is at level 9? And this assumes the Monk hits?

Spring Attacks are best with classes that can get a lot out of one attack, for example rogues (sneak attack damage) or power attacking 2-handed classes (power attack while spring attacking for extra owie).

In my view, spring attack is guarenteed to make the Monk do not very much in melee, and because the monk keeps springing back out, the Monk does not help to flank, and because the Monk ain't there to stop them, the enemy often can move by the monk to the casters. The rest of the party then says something like, "THANKS!"

Basically, Spring Attack for a monk is a lot of feats used up to allow the monk to do not very much damage per round, but do it relatively safely.

If the monk is going up against anything vaguely grappable (wizard or mooks) the monk just should flurry and grapple. You don't want to spring attack a wizard or anything grappalable. You want to full attack them and squeeze them to death.

If the Monk is going up a scary melee monster, yes, spring attack will keep the monk safe. It also keeps the monster pretty safe (i.e., the monk is almost ignorable compared to any other class doing damage in melee).

If you want to get into melee as a monk, strength is important. Pick a schtick and stick to it. Be a high-strength grapple master, with grappling feats, and a way to get "large" (item of enlarge 3x day). Or be the stunning fist master, with a high DC or something. Spring attack is...it's an open door leading to melee irrelevance.

In my humble opinion.

 

[DanMcS]

Can you use tumble in combination with spring attack? So you can move in, attack, then tumble away without provoking an attack of opportunity?

Yes. Max out tumble. And jump. At 9th level 30 foot leaps shouldn't phase you. Max out escape artist, because by 9th level, large monsters with improved grab suck.

Spring attack requires dodge, and that takes up 2 feat slots. How about the other 2, any suggestions? I was going to recommend axiomatic strike at 12th level so a feat that converts stunning fist into other abilities looks like less of a good idea... however pain touch looks appealing.

Spring attack also requires mobility I think, which is a feat you will never use otherwise (superceded by tumbling everywhere). If you don't want spring attack, don't get mobility. My 11th level monk has never gotten around to spring attack. You probably can, because with a high strength you don't need weapon finesse.

Also in regards to trip vs. disarm. Disarm is great if we really want to take someone alive... but a stun or spell from the wizard could also work. Is trip that beneficial? It seems to me like tripping can often be harder to accomplish than just a normal attack and even if you succeed it just gives you an attack of opportunity against a reduced AC. Therefore my characters have always ignored it and just done damage instead... except for my dire wolf which got a free attempt with each successful attack. Unfortunately, very few of those attempts were successful.

Disarming can work. I prefer tripping. Get improved trip as your bonus monk feat. Use a kama. That's a +6 to your trip right there. High strength and/or bull's strength from a caster could yield you a +9 or 10 trip check bonus, which means you win most of the time.

Improved trip gives you a free followup attack after you trip someone. So you trip as your first attack in the flurry. You hit, because it's a touch attack, and then you win, because of the bonuses. Get a free followup attack at the same bonus, only now you get a +4 because the defender is prone, as do all your followup attacks, as does your AoO when he stands up or tries to crawl 5' away. As do all your buddies' attacks who are nearby attacking this guy.

Disarm if you want to take someone alive, yeah, maybe, but you can do subdual damage with your fists just as easily as lethal, and that tends to work better for capturing people in my experience.

Then there is still the question of items. I was recommending a monk's belt... but is there a better choice? Or any good items to go along with that?

Yes, there is a better choice than monk's belt, but it's a monk's belt with a wand of "enlarge person" that you loan to the party wizard to cast on you. Monk's belt improves your AC, damage, and gives you an extra stunning fist use/day. That last is often negligable, the first two are great.

Polymorphing into an ape from the MM can be fun, too, and then you get to play a monkey-monk.

Magic item-wize, as a monk you get the best AC in the party. Dex boosting item, wis-boosting item, natural armor, deflection, and bracers of armor. Switch up your items pricewise- for the cost of a ring of deflection +2, you could get natural armor +1, deflection +1, and bracers of armor +2, for a rather better armor class.

 

[MichaelH]

Although the Spring Attack feat chain is nice for a monk due to his speed, it is by no means essential. There are plenty of other niches a monk can fill. The quintessential grappler would be an option. You only get so many feats, so you have to make some choices.

Many of the better feats in OA appear in Complete Warrior. Also, 3.5 monks have the quarterstaff on their special monk weapons list, which first appeared in OA. You could use some of the martial arts ideas in OA or create your own. IDHTBIFOM, so you will have to borrow it from your DM.

 

[Lamoni]

Thanks for the replies

To sum up some ideas...
spring attack is great for keeping the monk alive, but not very effective at killing the bad guys... at least for a monk (a rogue can use it better) But couldn't you move in, do a stunning fist attack, then spring away if it was unsuccessful but otherwise stay to flurry the next round?

Tripping can be quite effective. It can keep them from doing a full-round attack while allowing you to continue to flurry. Would carrying a guisarme be better to avoid being tripped so you would have reach too?

Enlarge person helps the monk in almost every area. Thankfully, my sorcerer will have enlarge person as one of his spells known

So, my idea now is to give the monk a guisarme (even with a -4 penalty) let them make trip attacks at a range of 10 feet (does this become 15 feet if they are enlarged?) and then close if they are successful so they can follow up with the attack of opportunity and a full-round attack... with no need to drop the guisarme because they can still fight with their feet, elbows, etc. They can also use it for AoO's against anyone charging after them... of course being enlarged would also allow that.

Still max out on tumble, but maybe consider other options rather than the spring attack route... any other suggestions? Grapple isn't something that has any interest. You have less mobility, penalties to AC, etc. and that is assuming you are winning the grapple. Works great against a single humanoid, but that never comes up in our games.

 

[Kalendraf]

My weekly group currently has a 9th level monk. He's a major damage-dealer in many battles. As for his feats, he took Improved Trip & Stunning Fist for some of the monk bonus feats. He also took the Dodge/Mobility/Spring Attack feats to allow the hit'n'run tactic. Against difficult foes, like a giant with reach, he does the spring attack tactic. Against weaker foes, like a wizard, he uses trip attacks and stunning fists. As others have said, Monk are mage killers. Their speed and movement will usually let them reach an enemy caster on the 1st round and decimate that target quickly.

The monk's BAB is a bit low, so you should consider Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) as a possibility. The amulet of mighty fists is somewhat expensive, but it can help there too.

For other items, the monk needs some protective gear, but the focus should probably be on damage. The monks belt is good, but the enlarge spell is even more useful. Either get an enlarge wand for someone to use on the monk or a get a custom-made wondrous item that allows the monk to cast it some number of times per day.

An item that casts shocking grasp a number of times per day is good too, since the charge from that can be stored, and it doesn't go away until the first successful attack. Price for an item that casts shocking grasp at 5th level 1 time per day is about 2K, possibly more depending on the item slot it takes up. With an enlarged monk, wearing a monks belt, that can deliver an enormous opening hit.