Help crafting an Eladrin Fighter

Is it really open for debate that you can't use the axe end for things specifying a spear?

Yeah, its quite open for debate. The actual issue revolves around what exactly the box on page 10 means when it talks about primary and secondary ends of the weapon. Oddly enough the consensus (and I believe WotC CS etc) conclusion seems to be that the entire weapon is both an axe and a spear and thus from a game mechanics perspective the only time you need to care about the d12 vs the d8 is when you use a power which requires an attack with the off hand. Thus by RAW you can use an urgrosh with RoB (or any other power/feat/etc requiring or benefiting from a spear) and still do the d12 damage. That being said it isn't a massive difference really, only 2 points higher average damage on each of possibly 3 attacks. The real kicker is the fact that you get to benefit from all the properties and powers, which opens up the real static damage nightmare stuff like Bloodclaw Urgrosh.
 

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Thanks guys for all your help. I think you are right about what tier I plan to play in being the deciding factor here. In heroic tier the tempest is just plain better. In paragon, the glave / spear build is just so awesome.

I have looked at the Draven Marauder, it is quite good. It definitely is more control oriented where as Kensai is all about the +1 to hit / +4 damage. There is one more possibility : Blade dancer ranger PP, I would need to switch to dual wielding longswords, but it would be fun and much more defensive
 

Yeah, its quite open for debate. The actual issue revolves around what exactly the box on page 10 means when it talks about primary and secondary ends of the weapon. Oddly enough the consensus (and I believe WotC CS etc) conclusion seems to be that the entire weapon is both an axe and a spear and thus from a game mechanics perspective the only time you need to care about the d12 vs the d8 is when you use a power which requires an attack with the off hand. Thus by RAW you can use an urgrosh with RoB (or any other power/feat/etc requiring or benefiting from a spear) and still do the d12 damage. That being said it isn't a massive difference really, only 2 points higher average damage on each of possibly 3 attacks. The real kicker is the fact that you get to benefit from all the properties and powers, which opens up the real static damage nightmare stuff like Bloodclaw Urgrosh.

I will need to read this stuff I didin't realize there was discussion about it. but the real difference is d8 or d12? How can that be a big deal, heh. As far as bloodclaw, I definatly dont plan on using it, it's far too cheesy for my tastes. I will probably go with radiant when it becomes available for the extra static damage mod.

The only time you are supposed to use the d8 damage is when its an "off-hand" attack, like in dual strike, right?

Would any of the hits in rain of blows be with the d8? It doesn't say off-hand anywhere. It doenst really matter much from a damage standpoint since its only 1[w] but I want to be fair about it.
 

There isn't a discussion. Double weapons count as both weapons, always. Certainly this was done to simplify things, but it does create some situations that folks don't like. The Urgosh is one, but so is the Double Sword being used for Sneak Attack.

I totally understand not liking this, and even houseruling it, but as far as I am aware, there has been no faq, no erratta, and no custserv ruling that changes the fact that an Urgosh counts as an axe and a spear on both ends.

Also, you can't dual wield longswords, they are not off hand weapons. Only if your main class is Two Weapon Ranger can you do that.

Jay
 

There isn't a discussion. Double weapons count as both weapons, always. Certainly this was done to simplify things, but it does create some situations that folks don't like. The Urgosh is one, but so is the Double Sword being used for Sneak Attack.

I totally understand not liking this, and even houseruling it, but as far as I am aware, there has been no faq, no erratta, and no custserv ruling that changes the fact that an Urgosh counts as an axe and a spear on both ends.

Also, you can't dual wield longswords, they are not off hand weapons. Only if your main class is Two Weapon Ranger can you do that.

Jay

Ok thanks. I will ask my DM, because the other possiblity is going 2 longswords (With two blade warrior MC feat) which would open up some nice ranger powers, I would probably go attacks on the run because there is nothing really good for fighter at lvl 9.

Or I could just go for the double sword and totally forget any racial synergy :(

I REALLY appreciate your guys insight and help, its so much better than the wizards boards!!!
 
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Urgrosh fixes / alternatives

IF the Urgrosh is overpowered (remember it is a Superior weapon) then what are some ways my DM could balance this out? My ideas so far:

1) make it always a d8 weapon if you want to take advantage of the spear keyword.

2) reflavor the double sword to be a double-spear (exact same stats, just replace the heavy blade and light blade keywords with a spear keyword)

3) make both ends d10 (basically a clone of the double axe/double flail with different keywords)

1 seems underpowered compared to other superior weapons and 2/3 seem comperable with other superior weapons IMO.

Do any of you have other fixes for it?
 

IF the Urgrosh is overpowered (remember it is a Superior weapon) then what are some ways my DM could balance this out? My ideas so far:

1) make it always a d8 weapon if you want to take advantage of the spear keyword.

2) reflavor the double sword to be a double-spear (exact same stats, just replace the heavy blade and light blade keywords with a spear keyword)

3) make both ends d10 (basically a clone of the double axe/double flail with different keywords)

1 seems underpowered compared to other superior weapons and 2/3 seem comperable with other superior weapons IMO.

Do any of you have other fixes for it?

Well, there is endless debate on the whole topic of double weapons, particularly the Urgrosh and Double Sword, though the other two bother some people as well. Some people feel they are simply overpowered, particularly in the hands of tempest fighters, TBF rangers, and rogues (well that covers pretty close to all serious melee classes right there...). Other people feel they are just OP in the sense that any character who would contemplate using two weapons would be crazy not to take a double weapon. Then there are those who just don't have a problem with them.

If you fall into category 1, then banning them is basically pretty much the reasonable response.

If you fall into category 2, then there is room for various tweaks. According to one statement made by the 4e design team they had intended double weapons to act entirely like 2 independent weapons with different types and with the off-hand and defensive keywords on the "minor" end of the weapon only. Apparently the goal was to give two weapon wielders a way to not be forced to keep up with 2 magic weapons by allowing the enhancement bonus to apply to both ends. So that would be one approach. It definitely has a slight impact on tempest fighters if you do that. They'll loose 1 point of damage with the "main" end of the weapon and RoB will have to do d8 damage. It will have basically no impact on rangers and rogues though unless they're MC to fighter for RoB and even then as I said before the difference is not that great.

I guess if you feel that double weapons are STILL OP, you could drop the defensive property. However that pretty much puts them exactly on a par with wielding 2 military weapons, so rangers might as well not bother. Rogues might still be interested though. It would cost tempest a point of AC, but otherwise doesn't really give them much reason not to keep using the urgrosh since RoB/spear stuff is the whole point anyway really.
 

Well, there is endless debate on the whole topic of double weapons, particularly the Urgrosh and Double Sword, though the other two bother some people as well. Some people feel they are simply overpowered, particularly in the hands of tempest fighters, TBF rangers, and rogues (well that covers pretty close to all serious melee classes right there...). Other people feel they are just OP in the sense that any character who would contemplate using two weapons would be crazy not to take a double weapon. Then there are those who just don't have a problem with them.

If you fall into category 1, then banning them is basically pretty much the reasonable response.

If you fall into category 2, then there is room for various tweaks. According to one statement made by the 4e design team they had intended double weapons to act entirely like 2 independent weapons with different types and with the off-hand and defensive keywords on the "minor" end of the weapon only. Apparently the goal was to give two weapon wielders a way to not be forced to keep up with 2 magic weapons by allowing the enhancement bonus to apply to both ends. So that would be one approach. It definitely has a slight impact on tempest fighters if you do that. They'll loose 1 point of damage with the "main" end of the weapon and RoB will have to do d8 damage. It will have basically no impact on rangers and rogues though unless they're MC to fighter for RoB and even then as I said before the difference is not that great.

I guess if you feel that double weapons are STILL OP, you could drop the defensive property. However that pretty much puts them exactly on a par with wielding 2 military weapons, so rangers might as well not bother. Rogues might still be interested though. It would cost tempest a point of AC, but otherwise doesn't really give them much reason not to keep using the urgrosh since RoB/spear stuff is the whole point anyway really.

OK, I think me DM is totally ok with double weapons. Its just the urgrosh's which end does what shennanaigans that are tough to swallow. So I was looking into the double sword, which would basically make this character totally fair... Until I saw the Zulaat in the Character Builder:

Zulaat
Superior Double Melee weapon
Proficiency bonus: +2
Range: -
Damage: 2d4/2d4
Group: Heavy Blade, Polearm
Property: Defensive, Off-Hand
Price: 0 gp
Weight: 0 lb.


Oh my god, this fits both what I want to do in heroic as a tempest fighter, and it will work in paragon as a area control HBO / polearm gamble fighter.


I will come up with a build and post it.
 

Also, you can't dual wield longswords, they are not off hand weapons. Only if your main class is Two Weapon Ranger can you do that.
There's a ranger multiclass feat for it, from Martial Power: Two-Blade Warrior. However the main problem is losing the bonus from using off-hand weapons from your tempest technique.
 

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