Bryon_Soulweaver
First Post
A lich with two iron golems made from mythril. A row of 10 zombies, each with a few levels in fighter. Then you got the half-sucubus sorcerer/cleric of (insert blank) behind them controlling it all.
HELP! DM made mistakes, doesent want to scrap game!
- Thread starter Oberyn
- Start date
Mark CMG
Creative Mountain Games
Tell your group it takes a bit more time to prep your regular game in between sessions and run a second game at a power level you feel more equipped to handle. Maybe even do it on a two-to-one basis until you feel caught up. At the least, you'll have twice as much time to prep the games that are more difficult for you to gage and you'll likely feel more ready for them when you do play with the higher powered characters. In between, your group may discover that they much prefer the other game where you're able to properly challenge the PCs and they might wish to put the original game on hold for a while.
i know exactly how it feels........my DM messed up BAD!!!! the ranger/sorceror of the group went from character lv.13 to character lv.20!!!!!!! Our DM put us up against a CR 24!!!! He missread the CR and didnt know wht he had done untill it was to late. We had to fight an ANCIENT GREEN DRAGON 
as the paladin of the group i was the only one able to do something b/c i had airwalk (i think) casted on me so i was able to go to the dragon and fight him while no one else was able to do much. The ranger had a sword that casted lightning and he was just about the only one to do anything. We werent able to kill the dragon so the DM was nice enough to make the dragon fly away. If we had killed the dragon im sure it would of been AWEFUL for our DM.
See we have this player who "invented" some things and sold them to the Babalian Gov't
(SP?) so he ws rewarded with ALOT of money. He basically pumped himself up early in the game and it made the DM have a hard time figuring out what to throw at us. He tries to throw 1 or 2 strong opponents at us but he hasnt learned yet that he needs to try and out number us.
So i guess to make your campaign tougher you could swarm your PC's with alot of weaker opponents. OR my favorite................... trap them in a room or something to where they CANT escape. Take whoever you think has the item you dont want and put them into a situation to where they have to give the item up. Or when you trap them the BBEG/nemisis/etc... could demand something from the players in order to live. Let the PC's fight among each other to see who finally looses something. IF your party is only lv.9 , i dont think they have access to teleports or stuff like them. Trap them behind a wall of force that is SLOWLY moving toward them and will crush someone if they dont offer an item up. they either part with an item or DIE!!!!
*is mad at my current DM for putting us in that situation*
as the paladin of the group i was the only one able to do something b/c i had airwalk (i think) casted on me so i was able to go to the dragon and fight him while no one else was able to do much. The ranger had a sword that casted lightning and he was just about the only one to do anything. We werent able to kill the dragon so the DM was nice enough to make the dragon fly away. If we had killed the dragon im sure it would of been AWEFUL for our DM. See we have this player who "invented" some things and sold them to the Babalian Gov't
(SP?) so he ws rewarded with ALOT of money. He basically pumped himself up early in the game and it made the DM have a hard time figuring out what to throw at us. He tries to throw 1 or 2 strong opponents at us but he hasnt learned yet that he needs to try and out number us.
So i guess to make your campaign tougher you could swarm your PC's with alot of weaker opponents. OR my favorite................... trap them in a room or something to where they CANT escape. Take whoever you think has the item you dont want and put them into a situation to where they have to give the item up. Or when you trap them the BBEG/nemisis/etc... could demand something from the players in order to live. Let the PC's fight among each other to see who finally looses something. IF your party is only lv.9 , i dont think they have access to teleports or stuff like them. Trap them behind a wall of force that is SLOWLY moving toward them and will crush someone if they dont offer an item up. they either part with an item or DIE!!!!
*is mad at my current DM for putting us in that situation* kigmatzomat
Legend
Oberyn said:
I think you may have had a Disposable Dragon moment and forgot to play it as a centuries old, rationally paranoid individual. Which is good; now you can send a *real* dragon after them, possibly the slain dragon's mate.
Use a dragon of the same CR but with more viciousness. Have it fly over their camp, dropping rocks, or even monsters, from high altitude. Take advantage of shield, mage armor, blur, and invisibility spells. Use the concealment and immunity to ranged weapons created by the hover feat. Combine Snatch with Fly-By to separate the party. Make sure the dragon is using weapons and magic items in its hoard. Ring of Protection +2? Wear it!
Primitive Screwhead
First Post
When faced with this.. I always end the game.
But, if you want to continue the game, you have two options:
High-Powered Arms race: Get bigger, badder, higher DR critters for them to slay, eventually wandering out to outer planes and diety level stuff...and eventually an accidental TPK when you overestimate the PC's abilities....
High-Powered Power Removal: In a series of adventures, slowly strip them of thier items, replacing them with lesser items. In this version, the enemies are smarter, faster, and more intelligent. fx, Thieves Guild learns of this weapon that slew a dragon in one strike.. Lord HumptyFratz would love to pay top dollar for its aquisition.
I have guest DM'd a number of games that had reached this point and a need for elimination of power was evident.. Kinda fun actually! I built a rep for depleting a group to bare minumum before letting them build back up {to the original DM's desired level}
Either way, you need to talk to your players and let them know the stakes. Let them know that, while they may be able to lay the smack down with lucky hits.. next time it might be them since you are not practiced at how much damage higher powered critters can lay about.
As a side note... I tend to wonder about PC's of non-epic level killing Dragons...I even have a module designed called 'So, you want to slay a dragon...'. Properly and intelligently played, your dragon should have wiped the walls with this group. The keys are preparation, planning, and dastardly tactics.
An example from my module.. after minions have engages and spread the party out a bit, the Dragon drops from above {silenced and Invisible} on top of the juiciest target while breathing on any spellcasters. For the rest of the combat, the Dragon remains seated on the poor unfortunate soul while rending the rest of the group to shreds. {Black Dragon.. in swamp.. waist deep water for humans.. its all a matter of choice of the battlefield.
}
Another suggestion is to put them in situations where they need to leave their equipment behind.. combat in the middle of a ballroom, sinking ships and they need to swim to shore.. all sorts of ways to part PC from thier goods.
Of course, rewarding them with replacement goods/acheivements is a must or they will revolt from your destroying thier fun
But, if you want to continue the game, you have two options:
High-Powered Arms race: Get bigger, badder, higher DR critters for them to slay, eventually wandering out to outer planes and diety level stuff...and eventually an accidental TPK when you overestimate the PC's abilities....
High-Powered Power Removal: In a series of adventures, slowly strip them of thier items, replacing them with lesser items. In this version, the enemies are smarter, faster, and more intelligent. fx, Thieves Guild learns of this weapon that slew a dragon in one strike.. Lord HumptyFratz would love to pay top dollar for its aquisition.
I have guest DM'd a number of games that had reached this point and a need for elimination of power was evident.. Kinda fun actually! I built a rep for depleting a group to bare minumum before letting them build back up {to the original DM's desired level}
Either way, you need to talk to your players and let them know the stakes. Let them know that, while they may be able to lay the smack down with lucky hits.. next time it might be them since you are not practiced at how much damage higher powered critters can lay about.
As a side note... I tend to wonder about PC's of non-epic level killing Dragons...I even have a module designed called 'So, you want to slay a dragon...'. Properly and intelligently played, your dragon should have wiped the walls with this group. The keys are preparation, planning, and dastardly tactics.
An example from my module.. after minions have engages and spread the party out a bit, the Dragon drops from above {silenced and Invisible} on top of the juiciest target while breathing on any spellcasters. For the rest of the combat, the Dragon remains seated on the poor unfortunate soul while rending the rest of the group to shreds. {Black Dragon.. in swamp.. waist deep water for humans.. its all a matter of choice of the battlefield.
}Another suggestion is to put them in situations where they need to leave their equipment behind.. combat in the middle of a ballroom, sinking ships and they need to swim to shore.. all sorts of ways to part PC from thier goods.
Of course, rewarding them with replacement goods/acheivements is a must or they will revolt from your destroying thier fun
There's nothing more frustrating for a player to be stripped out of possession by a DM who gave too much. I would strongly advise against it.
Here's my suggestions:
1) stop alloying non core material (except what was already accepted. i.e. the PrC and feats already taken)
2) create a subplot/campaign in which the access to magic items is sparse. End that sub plot once the correct wealth/level is achieved. You could for example send them in the Dark Sun setting for a while or in any area of your world where access to magic/magic items is low for some reason (dead magic area for example)
3) better critters with fewer loot. Do NOT use high CR NPCs, they will hold loads of magic items. It's a vicious circle down that way.
That's about it...
Here's my suggestions:
1) stop alloying non core material (except what was already accepted. i.e. the PrC and feats already taken)
2) create a subplot/campaign in which the access to magic items is sparse. End that sub plot once the correct wealth/level is achieved. You could for example send them in the Dark Sun setting for a while or in any area of your world where access to magic/magic items is low for some reason (dead magic area for example)
3) better critters with fewer loot. Do NOT use high CR NPCs, they will hold loads of magic items. It's a vicious circle down that way.
That's about it...
The big thing to think about is are the players and yourself having a good time? I would say the most fun I ever had with a group was when we threw out half of the rules, and played from 1st level to 18th level. The group became overpowered at about 12th level, but ehh we were having fun and it was a blast.
What did I do to make it challenging and fun??
1. I made the players the protectors of a small city. You wouldn't believe how much trouble protecting small city could be. This led to intrigue and roleplaying with players trying to discover assassins, oust theives guilds, and hold on to political power. I don't care what level you are, when the town council rules against you lost. This was fun for several reasons as far as roleplaying is concerned, though its not much for combat.
2. Combat!! To make combat more challenging I introduced "new" monsters. Okay so the monsters weren't new so to speak, but rather monsters I took and added some new abilities, changed the physical descriptions, added some odd and new DR circumstances and resistances as well as tweaking their combat prowess. All in all it made for some interesting battles as the players tried to figure out how to beat the creatures. If you can 2d6 + 40 dmg in a single blow with a sword, but the creature is immune to slashing weapons, the +40 loses its luster. This challenges the party to find new ways to fight. Maybe the fighter has a backup weapon in the form of a hammer, but maybe the monster can only be hurt by wooden weapons!!! It will drive your party crazy.
As for dealing with characters who buff, and dealing with buffed party members its easy, hit them with a dispel magic or greater dispel. Throw a beholder at them with its antimagic ray, you then get to see what your party is real made of, without the encounter being overly deadly and at the same time the chance of death is still very real.
What did I do to make it challenging and fun??
1. I made the players the protectors of a small city. You wouldn't believe how much trouble protecting small city could be. This led to intrigue and roleplaying with players trying to discover assassins, oust theives guilds, and hold on to political power. I don't care what level you are, when the town council rules against you lost. This was fun for several reasons as far as roleplaying is concerned, though its not much for combat.
2. Combat!! To make combat more challenging I introduced "new" monsters. Okay so the monsters weren't new so to speak, but rather monsters I took and added some new abilities, changed the physical descriptions, added some odd and new DR circumstances and resistances as well as tweaking their combat prowess. All in all it made for some interesting battles as the players tried to figure out how to beat the creatures. If you can 2d6 + 40 dmg in a single blow with a sword, but the creature is immune to slashing weapons, the +40 loses its luster. This challenges the party to find new ways to fight. Maybe the fighter has a backup weapon in the form of a hammer, but maybe the monster can only be hurt by wooden weapons!!! It will drive your party crazy.
As for dealing with characters who buff, and dealing with buffed party members its easy, hit them with a dispel magic or greater dispel. Throw a beholder at them with its antimagic ray, you then get to see what your party is real made of, without the encounter being overly deadly and at the same time the chance of death is still very real.
Arkhandus
First Post
Firstly, note that players will likely be very angry if you just go about destroying or taking away stuff that their characters already have. Sundering, Disjunctioning, stealing, or otherwise removing a magic item may be understandable once in a while, but even then it will likely anger the players even if they themselves use similar tactics against enemies. An Ethereal Filcher or something might snatch up one or two items though while the PCs rest, and then make a hasty retreat into the Ethereal.
Consider that gestalts are much stronger than their ECL suggests; a 9th/9th gestalt character is at least equivalent to a 12th or 14th-level character (lack of the higher-level spells and feats means that they're not really 18th-level equivalent). So base the CR or EL of combats on the PCs being effectively 3-5 levels higher than their actual character level. Use whichever Experience and treasure scheme is worse in these cases.
Perhaps limit the treasure acquisition a bit more. Remember that many creatures, such as animals, vermin, oozes, rust monsters (especially rust monsters!!!) don't tend to have treasure, so a bunch of these thrown in once in a while will result in a slower treasure build-up. Many undead and constructs also have no treasure to loot. Dragons often have hoards of coins, and rust monsters cannot rust those, because only iron-based stuff will rust, not gold, silver, platinum, or copper coins, nor gems.
Your party does not appear to have a cleric. Undead and evil outsiders will be more challenging. Bad guys (of the right sort, anyway) can use spells or scrolls of Create Greater Undead, Planar Ally, Greater Planar Binding, and such y'know.
Throw more undead, constructs, oozes, and elementals at the party. None of these are subject to critical hits. And it's quite reasonable to assume that a great dragon will have gone to some lengths before to acquire some such minions or lair-guardians (even if the creatures are unwitting guardians). I.E. in my current Rhunaria homebrew campaign, the great wyrm gold dragon Kizaraxmallian was recently visited by the PCs. His guards included a high-level, well-equipped lizardman fighter as guardian to the entrance, a pair of cloud giants as guards to the dragon's personal chambers, a few big ol' golems as autonomous door-guards (and door-openers, for those big ol' iron doors!) to some chambers, and a few more golems in the dragon's audience chamber. The PCs, fortunately, were there on a peaceful visit. And they only saw maybe half of the dragon's underground abode; no telling what guardians might be in other corridors and chambers.
Any reasonably-aged dragon is going to have at least one, if not multiple, mid-to-high-level spellcasters serving under or alongside him/her. These spellcasters will use spells like Detect Scrying, False Vision, Arcane Eye, Augury, and the like, to foresee or deceive anyone trying to approach or spy on the lair through Scrying or whatnot. Dragons, with their great senses and blindsight, will likely use a Darkness or Deeper Darkness spell to cover their lair, or perhaps an Invisibility spell on themselves. Natural darkvision won't penetrate magical darkness, IIRC, so the dragon will have the advantage with its blindsight, whereas scryers and intruders will likely be unable to see anything through the magical darkness. A simple Fog spell will work even better sometimes. Dragons will be so intimately familiar with their lair and treasure that they won't have any trouble navigating or even fighting by blindsight alone. A dragon should be very well-prepared strategically and tactically for any battle in its lair.
I.E. in the For More Than Glory campaign that I'm substitute-DMing for a bit, the PCs attacked a juvenile (or was it young adult?) green dragon named Oruzanthanax. Their Scrying attempts saw only darkness because of the dragon's cleric minion cloaking the lair's main chambers in magical Deeper Darkness. With spells like Whispering Wind, Message, and the like, the dragon and its spellcaster minions could communicate while virtually unheard by a scryer, and the fact that the PCs didn't understand Draconic helped too. The dragon knew they were coming in this case because of a warning horn sounded by a minion outside, and the dragon had already gone out and fought them that time; both sides had to lick their wounds afterward, and in a day or two the party struck at the dragon's lair. When the PCs fought their way to the main chamber, they could only see darkness in the room, and they started spreading out to look around. Oruzanthanax emerged from the Deeper Darkness to try mauling the elven ranger, but due to the ranger's high AC and some terrible rolls on my part, the dragon was rather ineffectual at first. It used its breath weapon either right away or on the next round, I forget which, and then began chasing the ranger to try biting and mauling him.
The group finally got a concerted attack going, but Oruzanthanax continued trying to maul the ranger that had so wounded it in the previous day's battle. The party's mage Baleful Polymorphed the dragon into an iguana, but the dragon made its Will save to keep its mind and magical abilities. Then the dragon's own spellcasters emerged from the Deeper Darkness and restored their master to normal form, and then began blasting the party. Oruzanthanax mauled the mage's familiar (who had been polymorphed earlier into a hydra) and the ranger too, slaying the familiar and nearly the ranger as well. Then the party started to get the upper hand again, as more of them got in the dragon's way while the ranger backed up before launching more deadly arrow-salvos. The dragon and its kobold spellcaster minions were eventually defeated, but at least three party members were near-death, plus the mage's familiar had been slain.
I only ran that battle half-competently, on purpose, to spare the PCs mercifully from what the dragon and his two most cunning minions really could have done. And I still nearly killed most of the party. That is how a dragon should be run.
I could have done much nastier things with the dragon's acid, the dark cave, the minion's spells, and the dragon's tactics (I had planned such things before, but decided to go with a simpler, less deadly plan). Instead, the PCs narrowly claimed victory, patched up their wounds, hauled off the dragon's treasure hoard, and got the mage's familiar Raised from the dead.
Consider that gestalts are much stronger than their ECL suggests; a 9th/9th gestalt character is at least equivalent to a 12th or 14th-level character (lack of the higher-level spells and feats means that they're not really 18th-level equivalent). So base the CR or EL of combats on the PCs being effectively 3-5 levels higher than their actual character level. Use whichever Experience and treasure scheme is worse in these cases.
Perhaps limit the treasure acquisition a bit more. Remember that many creatures, such as animals, vermin, oozes, rust monsters (especially rust monsters!!!) don't tend to have treasure, so a bunch of these thrown in once in a while will result in a slower treasure build-up. Many undead and constructs also have no treasure to loot. Dragons often have hoards of coins, and rust monsters cannot rust those, because only iron-based stuff will rust, not gold, silver, platinum, or copper coins, nor gems.
Your party does not appear to have a cleric. Undead and evil outsiders will be more challenging. Bad guys (of the right sort, anyway) can use spells or scrolls of Create Greater Undead, Planar Ally, Greater Planar Binding, and such y'know.
Throw more undead, constructs, oozes, and elementals at the party. None of these are subject to critical hits. And it's quite reasonable to assume that a great dragon will have gone to some lengths before to acquire some such minions or lair-guardians (even if the creatures are unwitting guardians). I.E. in my current Rhunaria homebrew campaign, the great wyrm gold dragon Kizaraxmallian was recently visited by the PCs. His guards included a high-level, well-equipped lizardman fighter as guardian to the entrance, a pair of cloud giants as guards to the dragon's personal chambers, a few big ol' golems as autonomous door-guards (and door-openers, for those big ol' iron doors!) to some chambers, and a few more golems in the dragon's audience chamber. The PCs, fortunately, were there on a peaceful visit. And they only saw maybe half of the dragon's underground abode; no telling what guardians might be in other corridors and chambers.
Any reasonably-aged dragon is going to have at least one, if not multiple, mid-to-high-level spellcasters serving under or alongside him/her. These spellcasters will use spells like Detect Scrying, False Vision, Arcane Eye, Augury, and the like, to foresee or deceive anyone trying to approach or spy on the lair through Scrying or whatnot. Dragons, with their great senses and blindsight, will likely use a Darkness or Deeper Darkness spell to cover their lair, or perhaps an Invisibility spell on themselves. Natural darkvision won't penetrate magical darkness, IIRC, so the dragon will have the advantage with its blindsight, whereas scryers and intruders will likely be unable to see anything through the magical darkness. A simple Fog spell will work even better sometimes. Dragons will be so intimately familiar with their lair and treasure that they won't have any trouble navigating or even fighting by blindsight alone. A dragon should be very well-prepared strategically and tactically for any battle in its lair.
I.E. in the For More Than Glory campaign that I'm substitute-DMing for a bit, the PCs attacked a juvenile (or was it young adult?) green dragon named Oruzanthanax. Their Scrying attempts saw only darkness because of the dragon's cleric minion cloaking the lair's main chambers in magical Deeper Darkness. With spells like Whispering Wind, Message, and the like, the dragon and its spellcaster minions could communicate while virtually unheard by a scryer, and the fact that the PCs didn't understand Draconic helped too. The dragon knew they were coming in this case because of a warning horn sounded by a minion outside, and the dragon had already gone out and fought them that time; both sides had to lick their wounds afterward, and in a day or two the party struck at the dragon's lair. When the PCs fought their way to the main chamber, they could only see darkness in the room, and they started spreading out to look around. Oruzanthanax emerged from the Deeper Darkness to try mauling the elven ranger, but due to the ranger's high AC and some terrible rolls on my part, the dragon was rather ineffectual at first. It used its breath weapon either right away or on the next round, I forget which, and then began chasing the ranger to try biting and mauling him.
The group finally got a concerted attack going, but Oruzanthanax continued trying to maul the ranger that had so wounded it in the previous day's battle. The party's mage Baleful Polymorphed the dragon into an iguana, but the dragon made its Will save to keep its mind and magical abilities. Then the dragon's own spellcasters emerged from the Deeper Darkness and restored their master to normal form, and then began blasting the party. Oruzanthanax mauled the mage's familiar (who had been polymorphed earlier into a hydra) and the ranger too, slaying the familiar and nearly the ranger as well. Then the party started to get the upper hand again, as more of them got in the dragon's way while the ranger backed up before launching more deadly arrow-salvos. The dragon and its kobold spellcaster minions were eventually defeated, but at least three party members were near-death, plus the mage's familiar had been slain.
I only ran that battle half-competently, on purpose, to spare the PCs mercifully from what the dragon and his two most cunning minions really could have done. And I still nearly killed most of the party. That is how a dragon should be run.
I could have done much nastier things with the dragon's acid, the dark cave, the minion's spells, and the dragon's tactics (I had planned such things before, but decided to go with a simpler, less deadly plan). Instead, the PCs narrowly claimed victory, patched up their wounds, hauled off the dragon's treasure hoard, and got the mage's familiar Raised from the dead.ARandomGod
First Post
Bastoche said:
Hear hear! I agree. It's almost always bad form to destroy the party's treasure, it should be a last resort and pretty much you should talk with them first and let them know *why*
(IE: "Sorry guys, I have to take away your stuff because I can't handle it."
Bastoche said:
Along this line, you still want to buff up the enemies. Spellcasters, perhaps ones that flee right after buffing the enemy (assuming you want the party to win). Disposable one shot (or limited use) items. NO POTIONS> Potions suck and give out AoO's. Instead have wonderous items that are exactly the same, but can be acticated without provoking. Maybe some that can be activated as a free action. Maybe the characters will get some of these as loot, but in general you'll be able to use 'em all up well before the party's eventual victory. (In fact, you certainly *should* let some of them fall into the party's hands, sometimes they will kill off the enemy before they get a chance to use the item, so let 'em have it. It's one use, sells relatively cheaply compared to what a permanent magic item would sell for, and it let's the PC's see how the monsters with no magic treasure were doing all those magic things).
Something I saw suggested on this board once and have used a few times are magic melee weapons priced as ammo. You can buy five +5 arrows, do the same thing for a sword which can be +5 for five swings. Same price as arrows (much cheaper), and very good in the NPC's hand (who's only going to get a few swings in his "life", while much less treasure in the PC's hands. And there's a good justification for it too. Most people aren't going to need a +5 sword every day, and it's much more affordable to buy one that's +5 for only a few swings, in general that's more than enough to fight off a few bandits (or die to an adventuring party).
ARandomGod
First Post
Arkhandus said:
Note: While it's true that dragons often have hordes, those hordes are even more often well hidden, and dragons aren't always at home. Indeed, how do you think they got that horde? They left home and killed YOUR ADVENTURERS! (er.. ok, previous ones, but the point is that if the dragon dies now, it's treasure may be extremely unfindable.)
Arkhandus said:
Heheh. I feel the need to point out here that there very well could be crafted contingency spells around. That loot could be very mobile, a single minion could teleport himself, the treasure, and the dragon's corpse to a backup spot where the dragon will be dutifully cloned/ressurected/whatever. The PC's still get a massive win, and maybe some treasure stayed behind in the scramble to leave, but a well prepared group of spellcasters should be nearly impossible to murder and loot.
