Help fix these feats (10-08: Throwback)

Borlon

First Post
I got Monte Cook's "The Year's Best D20" and I found a feat chain that, to me, has very dubious mechanics. I want to draw on the collective intelligence of EN World to make these feats better.

First is "Damaging Spell." It's from Atlas Games' Love and War, and is basically Power Attack for spells. You take a spell that allows a save to reduce or ignore the damage, and which deals damage depending on the caster's level. For every two points by which you reduce the save DC of the spell, it deals damage as if you were one level higher. This can increase the spell past the damage cap. It doesn't change the spell slot.

The example is of a 10th level spellcaster who prepares the spell with a -4 to the save DC. The resulting fireball does 12d6 damage. My objection is that there is nothing in the feat that limits the penalty to the DC. I don't see why the spellcaster doesn't reduce the save DC by -60, and do a 40d6 fireball. Sure everyone saves, but they take 20d6 damage. Heck, why stop at -60? Reduce the DC by a few billion and kill everyone who doesn't have evasion. How should this feat be fixed?

Damaging Spell is a prerequisite for Spell Cleave. Once per round, when a touch-range spell reduces an opponent to 0 hit points or kills him, you may cast another touch-range spell as a free action against another creature in the area you threaten. You may not take a 5-foot step before casting this spell, and the spell you cast must have a casting time of one standard action or less. The feat doesn't grant you extra spells, it just lets you cast them faster.

Since Spell Cleave has Damaging Spell as a prerequisite, you'd think they'd affect the same kind of spell, wouldn't you?

Spell Cleave seems ignorant of how touch spells are actually used. A spellcaster normally casts the spell, then takes a 5 foot step and touches an opponent. Or holds the charge and touches somebody the next round. When the spell is cast is not when the victim is chosen. I don't know what it means by casting a spell on another creature in the area you threaten. If you miss, does that mean the spell is lost, or can you try again the next round? If you try again, does it have to be against the same creature, or can you try to touch a different opponent?

If I were writing Spell Cleave, I would say that if you drop someone with a touch spell, the spell is not immediately expended but lasts long enough for you to attempt another touch attack (with the same attack bonus) against an opponent you threaten. You may not take a 5 foot step before making this attack. In other words, the feat allows you to stretch the spell enough that it can affect one additional opponent.

Comments? Suggestions?
 
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You could fix Damaging Spell by capping the penalty you take to your primary spellcasting stat bonus (so if you are a wizard with an 18 int you can drop your DC by 4).
 

I like the premise, but I think these feats need to be focused into an actual chain. Either for touch spells where the attack bonus is reduced for extra damage, or for targetted spells with a save penalty.
 




Raven Crowking said:
The Jester's fix also works...simply put a cap on the amount of adjustment you can do to the save DC. The Jester suggests a cap based on stat bonus, but you could just as easily use caster level if you are afraid of "nerfing" the feat too much.

BTW, I like Borlon's modification to Spell Cleave. Yoink.

Hey, thanks for adopting the mod! I like the simplicity of your fix; that the feat increases the effect of the spell on those fail the save while simultaneously increasing the chance that they will make the save. Very elegant.

I think Sledge is right about the fact that it nerfs the feat, though. Imagine that a 10th level wizard with an 18 intelligence casts fireball on some opponents. The opponents have a +3 reflex save. They make their save against the unmodified fireball on a 14 or better, so 35% of the time.

Average d6 of damage= (0.35 * 5) + (0.65 * 10) = 8.25

The wizard reduces the save DC by 4, increasing the damage (on a failed save) to 12d6.

Average d6 of damage = (0.55 * 5) + (0.45 * 12) = 8.15

He actually does slightly less damage. But you'd think that against opponents with such poor saves he could stand to reduce the save by at least 4.

Using Jester's suggestion, the damage on a successful save would also be increased, but not by more than 4 (since that is the caster's spellcasting mod). That would result in 8.7 d6 of damage, or less than 1.6 hp damage more per monster from what the unmodified spell would do. For this you spent a feat?

I think you'd need to increase the conversion rate to 1:1. That is, reduce the DC by 1 to increase the CL by 1.

Then the RC model would be (0.55 * 5) + (0.45 * 14) = 9.05 d6 on average. About 2.8 hit points more per monster than if the feat hadn't been taken. Better, but still kinda marginal.

If you use Jester's mod, you get 10.15 dice. 6.65 more damage per monster. That seems good. But the problem with Jester's mod with the improved conversion rate is that you would always want to use the feat to its fullest. For fireball, each -1 in the DC reduces the effect of a 10d6 fireball by 0.25d6. But each +1 to the caster level adds at least 0.5 d6 damage. It's not a well-designed feat if you always use it to its fullest.

So I think that RC's fix is best, if supplemented by changing the conversion rate from -1 DC = +1 CL. But it still seems a pretty weak feat.
 

No more comments about Damaging Spell and Spell Cleave?

Here's another one: Throwback. It's from Green Ronin's Aasimar and Tiefling: A Guidebook to the Planetouched. To take it, you have to take another enabling feat. That feat gives you a +2 to diplomacy and intimidate checks vs outsiders, so is pretty weak.

Throwback functions when you are the target of a spell with a fear descriptor. For six rounds you become a mindless killing machine, attacking randomly (friend and foe alike). You get a +4 inherent bonus to strength and immunity to mind-affecting spells. You respond only to telepathic commands of five words or less. You don't remember anything that happens while you are in this frenzy. Supposedly these are traits of lemures, a kind of minor devil.

Does the spell actually make you mindless (like vermin and constructs are)? If so, then you aren't an eligible target for Rary's Telepathic Bond. RTB is a divination spell that doesn't work on creatures whose intelligence is less than 3. Actually, reading the spell I am not sure of that; maybe it just can't be cast on a creature whose intelligence is less than 3.

The issue is that with the telepathic bond then the main side effect of the feat (attacking everyone randomly) is entirely negated; anyone you are telepathically linked to can order you to attack the bad guys instead of friends.

Do telepathic enemies (like devils) have a chance to recognize what is going on, and give orders too?

Why does the feat only work on spells? If you are a target of a fear effect, shouldn't the Lemure blood reassert itself too? And why does it make you only immune to mind affecting spells; why not mind affecting effects? If it does make you mindless (Int 0) shouldn't you become immune to mind affecting effects automatically?

So basically what I am asking for is people's comments on the rules issues of Throwback, and whether it is worth two feats to get. Or more comments on Damaging Spell or Spell Cleave, if you have them.
 

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