Help in understanding Lycanthropes!

[RiTz21]

In the Lycanthropes As Characters section of the SRD, is says:

Racial Hit Dice: A lycanthrope adds the Hit Dice of its animal form to its base Hit Dice for race, level, and class. These additional Hit Dice modify the lycanthrope’s base attack bonus and base saving throw bonuses accordingly.

This is a bit unclear to me: Take for instance a Dwarf fighter 1, with lycanthropy as a 1 HD Baboon.

Would this dwarf have:

3 HD: +1 for Fighter class, +1 for Dwarven race, +1 for Baboon lycanthrope template

OR​

2 HD: +1 for Fighter class, +1 for Baboon lycanthrope template (dropping the 1 HD from race)​

I've been trying to find 'rule perfect' lycanthrope builds with class levels to check this out, but I've had no luck at this time...

So how does it work exactly (and please justify your reply!) - Thanks!!

RiTz21

 

[Starbuck_II]

In the Lycanthropes As Characters section of the SRD, is says:


This is a bit unclear to me: Take for instance a Dwarf fighter 1, with lycanthropy as a 1 HD Baboon.

Would this dwarf have:

3 HD: +1 for Fighter class, +1 for Dwarven race, +1 for Baboon lycanthrope template​

OR​

2 HD: +1 for Fighter class, +1 for Baboon lycanthrope template (dropping the 1 HD from race)​

I've been trying to find 'rule perfect' lycanthrope builds with class levels to check this out, but I've had no luck at this time...

So how does it work exactly (and please justify your reply!) - Thanks!!

RiTz21

The sentence is attempting to clarify, but it assumes you already know about 1 HD = exchange it rule.

Dwarf don't have racial HD since they humanoids (well, they do but humanoids always exchange them for a level if they have only 1; in fact most creatures do)

SRD:

Humanoids with 1 Hit Die exchange the features of their humanoid Hit Die for the class features of a PC or NPC class.

So a Dwarf Fighter has 1 HD (d10 for Fighter): if he is a Werebaboon he gains the racial HD of the animal so 1d10 (fighter) + 1d8 (baboon)= 2HD

For example: Monster Manual uses a Were Rat as a 1 HD creature added to a warrior:
It adds the warrior HD (d8) + 1 HD of the rat (since Dire rats have 1 HD).

1d8+1 plus 1d8+2 (12 hp)

Now you have to add Level Adjustment for ECL (effective Character level) but that only matters for Exp, wealth per level, etc.

 

[Thanael]

"Becoming a lycanthrope is very much like multiclassing as an animal and gaining the appropriate Hit Dice."

 

[LOLC2k]

It would be like it, if it wasn't for the level adjustments they all have.

 

[Starbuck_II]

It would be like it, if it wasn't for the level adjustments they all have.

You can sorta get around that by taking Savage Species template levels from WotC website: basically it turns the thing into a class.

They did one on Weretiger, Werewolf, and Werebear. I'm not sure if they did Wererat, but maybe.

The cool thing is they made gaining the animal levels optional.

 

[Theroc]

You can sorta get around that by taking Savage Species template levels from WotC website: basically it turns the thing into a class.

They did one on Weretiger, Werewolf, and Werebear. I'm not sure if they did Wererat, but maybe.

The cool thing is they made gaining the animal levels optional.

Isn't it the same net difference though? I mean, the only advantage is if you're a caster or anyone else who would be gimped by being a lycanthrope(which is just about everyone from my understanding), you can opt to ignore the lycanthropy and never take levels in it, therefore being unaffected by the infection.

Unless I misunderstood the Savage Species stuff when I looked through it. If you choose to take those levels, you're still taking the LA in essence, aren't you?

 

[irdeggman]

Isn't it the same net difference though? I mean, the only advantage is if you're a caster or anyone else who would be gimped by being a lycanthrope(which is just about everyone from my understanding), you can opt to ignore the lycanthropy and never take levels in it, therefore being unaffected by the infection.

Actually the "advantage" is in inserting such a character into an existing game. Instead of "suddenly" jumping up in EL you maintain an equivalncy with the other PCs so that none are suddenly more powerful than the others.

You also have the option of only being a "lesser" version by not taking all of the levels and thus not gainng all of the "benefits".

Unless I misunderstood the Savage Species stuff when I looked through it. If you choose to take those levels, you're still taking the LA in essence, aren't you?

Yes, but it becomes more visible and thus easier to understand how the concept of LA applies. It also works as a great means to keep the EL of each PC balanced (which is really, really important IMO).

Note that if you are building a high level character from scratch then the Savage Progessions system has a lot less appeal since it was designed to handle character gaining templates mid-game.

 

[Theroc]

That's true. I suppose I'm simply overconcerned about LA, since I've heard for the most part LA races and templates generally become more of a liability than a boon or even a fair tradeoff later down the road.

 

[frankthedm]

That's true. I suppose I'm simply overconcerned about LA, since I've heard for the most part LA races and templates generally become more of a liability than a boon or even a fair tradeoff later down the road.

Don't get hung up on the word "Effective" in Effective Character Level. Level adjustment levels are "Dead levels" that do virtually nothing to help the character. edit Hmm... "^Ineffective Character Level"

At first glance ECL seems to just be there to make sure the Fellowship of the Ring races are not outshined by the oddball races.

The big thing with ECL is when Level adjustment is set based on a creature already written out as a monster, NOTHING gets taken off ro reduce the ECL, it seemed wotc designers did not have that option, they had to work with what was in the MM. Thus a Hobgoblin gets a +1 LA solely because he has two ability score bumps, but no ability score penalties. BUT if writing a new race to have an ECL, they get to add just enough stuff to make the ECL worthwhile, without adding that "certain element" which would mandate another point of crippling level adjustment. Example: Poison Dusk Lizard folk are LA+1, but get far more than a LA+1 Hobgoblin does.

It is kinda like LA's are round holes, but MM monster stats are mostly square pegs. if Monster manual Monster A has a special ability that makes it not fit the round hole of LA+2. it automatically got bumped up to LA+3.

 

[Theroc]

Don't get hung up on the word "Effective" in Effective Character Level. Level adjustment levels are "Dead levels" that do virtually nothing to help the character. edit Hmm... "^Ineffective Character Level"

At first glance ECL seems to just be there to make sure the Fellowship of the Ring races are not outshined by the oddball races.

The big thing with ECL is when Level adjustment is set based on a creature already written out as a monster, NOTHING gets taken off ro reduce the ECL, it seemed wotc designers did not have that option, they had to work with what was in the MM. Thus a Hobgoblin gets a +1 LA solely because he has two ability score bumps, but no ability score penalties. BUT if writing a new race to have an ECL, they get to add just enough stuff to make the ECL worthwhile, without adding that "certain element" which would mandate another point of crippling level adjustment. Example: Poison Dusk Lizard folk are LA+1, but get far more than a LA+1 Hobgoblin does.

It is kinda like LA's are round holes, but MM monster stats are mostly square pegs. if Monster manual Monster A has a special ability that makes it not fit the round hole of LA+2. it automatically got bumped up to LA+3.

When I see LA or ECL adjustment, for the most part I ignore the option from a mechanical standpoint due to the degree to which I've heard it said such things are more a hindrance than a help in the long run. I'm expecting it to be not worthwhile as I've been told.

There are several races I'd like to play for a few things(Drow, Lycanthrope, Lizardfolk), but they have +2 or greater LA(or racial hit dice, which to my understanding equate to about the same thing, except they can't be 'bought off' as easily even if the racial LA buyoff rules are allowed), which from my understanding is generally overshadowed by 2 class levels, particularly if the player is intended to be a caster.

Sorry if it seems I'm hijacking the thread, perhaps I should fork this off or something, since this isn't directly tied to Lycanthropes specifically anymore, though Lycanthropes are part of what I am talking about.