Help Making a Paladin?

[Nightfall]

[Eridanis crawls out from under a stack of papers, one clenched in hand]

Sacred Journey was the one I'm thinking of. I know of a paladin who memmed it to boost his lay on hands, and then turned around and destroyed the big, bad vampire fellow who was the main antagonist with his hyped-up LOH. If your DM prepared for those sorts of twists of fate/creative uses for spells/munchkin moments (however you choose to look at it), then cool; but bear in mind that some spells have unintended consequences...

He did that with Sacred JOURNEY?!! Well I know it's powerful Paladin spell (thought you'd be upset with smite) but I've never HEARD of someone using THAT way. Obvious though I think the Dm's at fault since a powerful vampire, knowing he'll face a paladin, WOULD have SOME protection against divine and/or positive energy. I'll grant you this is something I've not even CONSIDERED with Sacred Journey, but that's pretty interesting.

 

[Jeremy]

Yeah. It was actually the peck's player playing the assmar paladin in Wulf's game. Edit: Not Wulf's game, Dinkledog's game as described in Wulf's Collected Story Hour.

He spent his money on a scroll of sacred journey, spent the time in the temple, made the sacrifice, and asked that his lay on hands be doubled that day.

It was.

Instead of using it to heal, he ingeniusly flew up and touched the BBEG with it and smacked him with a double strength, full power paladin lay on hands with an assmar paladin's charisma.

One fried baddy, sunny side up.



Of course, that got the spell banned from their game, but I thought it was fairly ingenious. At least he didn't double his smite damage and do a spirited charge power attack rhino hide armor holy sword 1000 point evisceration.

 

[Nightfall]

Yeah. It was actually the peck's player playing the assmar paladin in Wulf's game. Edit: Not Wulf's game, Dinkledog's game as described in Wulf's Collected Story Hour.

He spent his money on a scroll of sacred journey, spent the time in the temple, made the sacrifice, and asked that his lay on hands be doubled that day.

It was.

Instead of using it to heal, he ingeniusly flew up and touched the BBEG with it and smacked him with a double strength, full power paladin lay on hands with an assmar paladin's charisma.

One fried baddy, sunny side up.



Of course, that got the spell banned from their game, but I thought it was fairly ingenious. At least he didn't double his smite damage and do a spirited charge power attack rhino hide armor holy sword 1000 point evisceration.

Have to admit that WAS an igenious use of THAT spell. The charge thing might work better if he had "Righteous Charge" from R&R2. But man, who have thought to use it like THAT?!! LOL I don't see why it should be banned though. Just proves that the DM SHOULD consider such things, and should REWARD a player accordingly.

 

[Jeremy]

I don't see why it should be banned though. Just proves that the DM SHOULD consider such things, and should REWARD a player accordingly.

Oh I agree, it shouldn't have been banned, and the player should have been rewarded for his ingenuity-----but I also understand why it usually goes the other way.

As a DM it's so hard to remember that the point of your BBEG is to be defeated. You want him to fight valiantly and have a dramatic death and if he dies to a save or death spell in the first round or to a one hit instant kill it is upsetting if not handled correctly.

A DM who is a bigger man than I could have taken that situation and switched over to descriptive imagery ala Dragonball Z where in the paladin found his opening, and flew on his fully extended angelic wings down on the smirking undead villain... The paladin's hand burst into holy blue flames that then exploded into a mighty pyre that licked up and down his entire arm.. The villain has a mere moment to lift his guard, confused by what he is seeing before time seeming slows down and the paladin delivers his holy touch. The flames flash once echoed in the paladin's eyes before winking out. The villain doubles over in pain as the paladin comes to a stop before him. Nothing is apparently wrong with the villain except that he is doubled over and clutching at the center of his being as if in some tremendous pain. Then his papery stretched skin begins cracking with spidery lines of blue white light.. His back archs back and he tries to scream as the pure blue-white positive energy erupts forth from chest, mouth, eyes, and hands. It spirals up and out of him in a torrential inferno blasting away bone and rotted sinew until he is utterly consumed in the holy might.

Then the paladin and his allies draw steel and turn to face the villain's bewildered cronies.

Now THAT would be cinematic, exciting, and memorable. But myself as a DM would just hear 114 damage and lock up. "Ok. He dies in a burst of positive energy." At which point the other players glare at the player in question and the words "broken" and "munchkin" start being muttered instead of congratulating themselves on surprising their foe and coming up with an ingenious tactic.

Same thing happens if your evil wizard fails his fort save on a disintegrate. You forget that it's good sometimes when the good guys' abilities work. You just see your hard work and big baddie go up in the first round.

That's hard to take. I'm working on it, but I'm not there yet.

 

[Nightfall]

LOL Well in any case Jeremy, I'll have to remember that. But certainly it's NICE when the good guys win unexpectedly.

 

[silvertable81]

Why should I have a 12 dex? If I am in heavy armour won't I loose any dex modify to AC because of the weight?

You may lose any Dex mod to AC, but I'm pretty sure even Full Plate allows Max Dex +1 (Maybe only with masterwork.) However the penalties apply ONLY to AC your DEX still impacts your skills (though most DEX skills have an armor check penalty) it also impacts your initiative. Plus if you have 15 DEX you can take 2 weapon fighting and Ambidexterity. I like these feats for my Cleric/Fighter.

 

[Creamsteak]

I'm a VERY experienced player of paladins, both role-playing and roll-playing.

Tactically, I assume this is what you want, Paladins should have Charisma, Constitution, Strength, Wisdom, Intelligence, Dexterity if they want to be the pinacle of Badass when they are at high levels.

Charisma: Does Everything at once for a Paladin. You know that, I know that. The biggest difference at high levels is the saving throws, whereas at low levels the simple fact that you have charisma is good.

Constitution: Paladins need it more than fighters, because they don't have the same offensive power. Most of the Paladin's best attacks are derived from charisma, spells, and situational modifiers like charging with a lance on a mount. HP will be more important to you then it is to the fighter, without a doubt. After level 10, having an 18 starting Con would give you at least 40 extra hit points, making the gap between you and the 14 con fighter about 20 points bigger.

Strength: It's actually optional to do a strength based paladin. You can, at mid levels, make up for the lack of it. You have methods to enhance your own abilities, unlike the fighter who instead has constant abilities. Holy Sword, for instance, is like having a +10 to strength on average, if your using a bastard sword. Much cheaper and more efficient. Smiting with your Charisma mod also helps, and never forget to smite when you need it.

Wisdom: Bonus spells. Spell DCs. Will Saves. All very important things you will enjoy the benefits of. Minimum score of about 14, maximum of 20 to start (aasimar or such). You won't reap much more from this ability unless your epic, and have extra spellcasting levels.

Intelligence: I say intelligence before dexterity because I take expertise sometimes as a Paladin. I will agree that ambidexterity, or at least dodge and mobility, are good reasons to take dex over intelligence, but I choose this way. Also, I like to be able to perform my knowledge: Religion checks with a bonus... since I like to know things. It's good to have the skill points, but there are ways to make up for many of them.

Dexterity: Slight AC and Save Bonus can be made up for. As noted about intelligence, dodge, mobility, and spring attack are good if your a bi-pedal paladin rather than a rider. Hasted you might even be able to move/smite/move/smite with spring attack.

My recommendations for abilities:

Str 14
Dex 13
Con 18
Int 13
Wis 14
Cha 18

or

Str 17 (Raise to 18 at level 8)
Dex 13
Con 16
Int 13
Wis 14
Cha 17 (raise to 18 at level 4)

 

[Lela]

Oh I agree, it shouldn't have been banned, and the player should have been rewarded for his ingenuity-----but I also understand why it usually goes the other way.

As a DM it's so hard to remember that the point of your BBEG is to be defeated. You want him to fight valiantly and have a dramatic death and if he dies to a save or death spell in the first round or to a one hit instant kill it is upsetting if not handled correctly.

A DM who is a bigger man than I could have taken that situation and switched over to descriptive imagery ala Dragonball Z where in the paladin found his opening, and flew on his fully extended angelic wings down on the smirking undead villain... The paladin's hand burst into holy blue flames that then exploded into a mighty pyre that licked up and down his entire arm.. The villain has a mere moment to lift his guard, confused by what he is seeing before time seeming slows down and the paladin delivers his holy touch. The flames flash once echoed in the paladin's eyes before winking out. The villain doubles over in pain as the paladin comes to a stop before him. Nothing is apparently wrong with the villain except that he is doubled over and clutching at the center of his being as if in some tremendous pain. Then his papery stretched skin begins cracking with spidery lines of blue white light.. His back archs back and he tries to scream as the pure blue-white positive energy erupts forth from chest, mouth, eyes, and hands. It spirals up and out of him in a torrential inferno blasting away bone and rotted sinew until he is utterly consumed in the holy might.

Then the paladin and his allies draw steel and turn to face the villain's bewildered cronies.

Now THAT would be cinematic, exciting, and memorable. But myself as a DM would just hear 114 damage and lock up. "Ok. He dies in a burst of positive energy." At which point the other players glare at the player in question and the words "broken" and "munchkin" start being muttered instead of congratulating themselves on surprising their foe and coming up with an ingenious tactic.

Same thing happens if your evil wizard fails his fort save on a disintegrate. You forget that it's good sometimes when the good guys' abilities work. You just see your hard work and big baddie go up in the first round.

That's hard to take. I'm working on it, but I'm not there yet.

You're not the only one. I think upwards of 90, 95% of DMs (myself included) struggle with this. It's something I should work on.

 

[Eridanis]

I didn't mean to hijack this thread into second-guessing Dinkeldog's decisions at the table, but I want to defend him, since I started it.

I think it's great that Korak thought of the ingenious use for the spell, and I don't begrudge him using it that way. But I also think that the DM needs to have the power to control the parameters of his game (especially since DD's game started expressly as a "test out the third edition rules" game), and if a spell, item, prestige class, etc., proves unbalancing to the game and group as a whole, then the DM is allowed - no, obligated - to disallow it.
Perhaps I shouldn't have even brought it up, but that incident had a direct effect on my paladin's spell choices, since Wulf, Dinkeldog, and Dorn are all in my group, and the decision in that game trickled over into my game as a result.

 

[Nightfall]

I didn't mean to hijack this thread into second-guessing Dinkeldog's decisions at the table, but I want to defend him, since I started it.

I think it's great that Korak thought of the ingenious use for the spell, and I don't begrudge him using it that way. But I also think that the DM needs to have the power to control the parameters of his game (especially since DD's game started expressly as a "test out the third edition rules" game), and if a spell, item, prestige class, etc., proves unbalancing to the game and group as a whole, then the DM is allowed - no, obligated - to disallow it.
Perhaps I shouldn't have even brought it up, but that incident had a direct effect on my paladin's spell choices, since Wulf, Dinkeldog, and Dorn are all in my group, and the decision in that game trickled over into my game as a result.

I guess we have a difference of opinon on what's unbalancing and what isn't Erid. I mean it would be different IF that was the original author's intent. I have doubt he EVERY pictured ANYONE using that ability to smite undead like that. Sacred Journey's intent, in my understand, is something to aid in a paladin's quest to do justice and good. It just so happens that in this case, it wasn't QUITE what anyone expected.