Help me build a versatile Sorcerer

[Pax]

Yep, those two freebies ARE what I mentioned vis-a-vis Wizards. Take Magic of Faerun. Let's say the party is advancing from 9th to 10th level; both the Wizard and the Sorceror learn new spells, which includes 5th level spells. Having recently split the purchase price of a copy of MaF, both are excited by the spells therein. The wizard is especially fond of Lutzaen's Frequent Jaunt and Shadow Hand; the Sorceror gleefully anticipates learning Firebrand and Simbul's Spell Matrix.

The wizard gets HIS two spells, free of added charge, as part of his benefits upon going up a level.

The sorceror doesn't ... and is told to pick something ELSE, instead ... 'cause the GM didn't ALREADY provide the sorceror with a scroll or similar representative sample of each spell, and cites the rule-fragment which Thanee keeps pointing at ... ?!?!?

Bah. The Sorceror's player would be rightly ticked with his GM in that example - because the differing standards are grossly unfair.

And what is being discussed ATM, is ready access to supplement-presented spells. I don't care if it's comparing the cleric to the sorceror ... or the sorceror to the adept - if you significantly expand the one class's spell list, without especial cost ... then failing to do so for the other is not a balanced approach to take.

I played in a game where everyone hd to pay to get any of the spells in the supplements - fuill research costs. But it was fair and balanced, because everyone had to pay that cost. Paladin, ranger, druid, bard, cleric, wizard, and sorceror.

Not just sorceror.

And therein lays the difference. Eithr rules supplements are equally accessible by ALL classes with the SAME overall burden of cost, or, the game leaves another part of game balance behind.

 

[Camarath]

P.S. This has always been like this... 3.0... 3.5... no change to the rule.

Thanee are you saying that in 3.0 only the spells on the referenced page 168 were considered to be on the sorcerer spell list?

 

[Thanee]

Thanee are you saying that in 3.0 only the spells on the referenced page 168 were considered to be on the sorcerer spell list?

No. All sorcerer/wizard spells are on the spell list.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

because the differing standards are grossly unfair.

Nah, not grossly unfair... metamagic rods, now those are grossly unfair, unless you read them that way, that prepared casters use them during preparation not casting.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

And that is the intent behind the poassage you've misinterpreted.

That you think I have misinterpreted, please.

Again - read the SRD version, and tell me where THAT says anything that supports what you're interpreting it to be, even once.

The SRD is irrelevant. It isn't complete.

The wording in the 3.0 PHB said arcane spells, not surceror or wizard spells.

Yeah, but it is mentioned elsewhere, that sorcerers learn sorcerer/wizard spells.

Yes, there is. The rule of "later-published products often change that which was published beforehand".

Page?

And that's an unbelievably over-literalist reading of the rules - because you are neglecting the inherent "this is an update to the PHB" nature of supplemental rulebooks.

Well, that's your opinion. I think it's meant that way, that not every single spell published in every single book, regardless of how rare, weird, uncommon, unique, or whatever it is, can be learned without a source.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Pax]

Well, that's your opinion. I think it's meant that way, that not every single spell published in every single book, regardless of how rare, weird, uncommon, unique, or whatever it is, can be learned without a source.

And I am telling you, to place an EXCEPTIONAL burden on the Sorceror, and not all the other classes as well, is unbalanced, and unfair.

The SRD is irrelevant. It isn't complete.

Why do you say that? The ONLY thing the SRD lacks, is the rules for CREATING a character.

 

[Thanee]

It also leaves out other parts, parts of sentences, examples, etc. Even some PrC from the DMG are not in there.

Anyways, the D&D rules are in the PHB, not in the SRD, that are the general D20 rules.

And I hear you about the unfairness, I just don't see it that way, ok?

And I love to play sorcerers, which should be pretty obvious, if you have read some of my other posts.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Diirk]

Just from the PHB, that includes: Forcecage (without the 1500gp component!), Contingency, Wall of Force, Fire Shield, Daylight, Continual Flame, and Tenser's Floating Disc - as well as the inevitable slew of attack spells the Evocation school contains.

And Greater Shadow Conjuration, at 7th level, can similarly be ANY Sor/Wiz conjuration of 6th or lower level. Any summon monster up to SM6, Planar binding, wall of iron, Acid Fog, Teleport, Wall of Stone, Dimension Door, Solid Fog, Leomund's Secure Shelter, Phantom Steed, Sleet Storm, Glitterdust, Acid Arrow, Web, Obscuring Mist, etc, etc.

Shadow Conjurations are limited to Conjuration (Summoning) and Conjuration (Creation), so no Planar Binding, Teleport, Dimension Door... the rest are ok tho. Altho the saving throw makes some of them a bit unpractical... victim must make 2 will saves vs shadow conjuration glitterdust, for example.. succeeding either negates the spell.

I don't know if a shadow contingency particularly makes sense, but it is an evocation spell...

 

[Pax]

It also leaves out other parts, parts of sentences, examples, etc. Even some PrC from the DMG are not in there.

It only leaves out WOTC-specific intellectual property.

Anyways, the D&D rules are in the PHB, not in the SRD, that are the general D20 rules.

The SRD is the RULES (sans examples, WOTC's non-OGL IP, art, and fluff text). That is the entire point of the SRD.

Shadow Conjurations are limited to Conjuration (Summoning) and Conjuration (Creation), so no Planar Binding, Teleport, Dimension Door... the rest are ok tho. Altho the saving throw makes some of them a bit unpractical... victim must make 2 will saves vs shadow conjuration glitterdust, for example.. succeeding either negates the spell.

Hmm, I never noticed that it was subtype-limited before. *shrug*

Succeeding the illusion save makes the spell only 20% (for the basic Shadow Conjuration) effective - and for nondamaging effects, the GM is supposed to arbitrate what that means.

So for glitterdust, if you succeed in the Shadow Conjuration save, but not the blindness save ... I'd make it a 10% miss chance - one-fifth the miss chance of being blind. And some severe penalties to spot checks, too. More penalties for creatures with light sensitivity, or the euivalent (probably just pile those specific penalties atop everything).

 

[Camarath]

No. All sorcerer/wizard spells are on the spell list.

Why? The only spells referenced in the Sorcerer's Spells entry are on page 168. Thus if that entry limits the spells that are considered to be on the Sorcere's Spell List to those directly referenced in the entry then only the spells on page 168 can be considered to be on the Sorcere's Spell List.