Just for the record I still appreciate your input. I didn't do a very good job of communicating my meaning, which was to say that not all that applied to my game but it's worth talking about. I shouldn't post when both tired and hurried.
D&D General Help Me Build the D&D Game I Want to Run
- Thread starter Reynard
- Start date
Flamestrike
Legend
Gritty realism rest variant (allow exhaustion levels back on an overnight short rest) does most of what you want it to do out the box.
Implement a rule by which if you are reduced to 0 HP, but not killed outright, you can choose to remain on 1 HP but suffer a 'lingering injury' from the DMG. Only usable 1/ short rest.
Being raised from the dead permanently reduces Con by 2, unless it's the Greater version. In order for the spell to be successful you must succeed in a 'System shock/ Survival' check (A Con ability check, with a DC of 5). Interestingly a DC of 5 gives roughly the same % chance of surviving Resurrection as you had in AD&D. Greater Raise dead gives advantage on this check.
You are killed outright if damage drops you to 0 HP and there is enough damage left over higher than your Con score.
For low magic, either ban outright casters, or ban 'flashy' schools of magic (maybe they're learnable but come with a cost? Maybe a level of exhaustion to cast one?). Evocation, Conjuration and Transmutation should be banned. Illusion, Divination and Abjuration are generally OK. Necromancy is iffy.
Yeah, the idea is to build a house/ground rules document for the Pitch to go along with the setting/background doc. Once I have all the pieces in place, obviously.
My knee jerk preference is humans only but that may soften depending on how the setting development goes.
I definitely plan to use long rests and probably slow healing. There won't be any resurrection magic, more because I don't like what it implies in the setting, and I plan to do some serious curating of the spell lists. I'm actually less concerned about "flashy" magic than I am magic that makes carrying rations and torches obsolete. The things that make both overland travel and dungeon crawling a fun challenge are very easy to disrupt with common magic in 5e.
Flamestrike
Legend
There isnt really a need to slow down healing once you're on Gritty realism. The PCs need literally a full week of light activities (or better yet, bedrest) to heal Hit Points back (and recover half hit dice).
Healing magic will be used a lot less as well, seeing as you need a full week to get those precious slots back.
Use something besides 5e like DSA (The black eye) it is perfect for your intentions.
Nah, pun aside, you got a noble goal here, so how does one realize this with 5e?
You want to add grittiness depending on location. 5e s most cruel RAW mechanic imho is the exhaustion mechanic. Also still RAW: Use 8hour short rests and Weekend-at-the-inn long rest. Dwindling resources can add much grittiness I promise you.
What most people miss from GoT is not only the rarity of magic although very mighty magic does exist and also not the "grittiness" in form of very violent scenes and much cruelty going on, no it is rather - you will surely agree - the excessive "roleplaying" going on. So here you got another hook especially since you mentioned the story aspect:
Make the roleplaying parts of the adventure count! Put a secret favor marker with 3 to five steps on your NPCs and factions, something like enemy/hated/neutral/liked/friend. Whenever one of your players interacts, alter the status if applicable e.g. if social skill checks have extraordinary die results or if the roleplaying of your PCs would cause a NPCs reaction to shift.
What I do not recommend because imho it is a pointless bloat, is to use all sorts of grittiness system.
5e s major buff/debuff is advantage/disadvantage. The system unbalances very quick if you add on top of that, e,g, you decide to give a player a -5 AND disadvantage because he has got some injury, then every one on one could turn out deadly. If I were a player in that situation, I would abandon all save the world plans until healed up again.
Sop put the grittiness into RP and descriptions, use the exhaustion mechanic to punish the players and inhibit long rests outside of civilized areas and you should be fine.
Lanefan
Victoria Rules
I wouldn't be on board with this one, if only because if the game's going to be potentially more lethal (which despite any best attempts it would appear that it will be) then revival magic ought to be on the table somewhere.
Now here you're bang on!
Everyone picks on the blast mages when looking to rein magic in because they an easy target, but it's the utility mages who step on everyone else's toes.
As for things that get around carrying rations and torches, it depends on whether you're planning on running long underground dungeon crawls (particularly if there's no access to a resupply point) as to whether there needs to be a workaround for torches or lanterns; because if they run out in mid dungeon the whole thing will grind to a halt.
For rations, maybe restrict any food creation spell such that it only gives enough to feed the caster for a day and won't help anyone else at all.
On a broader scale, one thing you'll probably want to get your players to buy into up front is a generally slower pace of play; where tracking resources, mapping, information gathering and so on gain more focus (and thus take more time) than in what seems like a more typical group today.
Here are the things I think you are going to need to do to get this game to work the way you want it:
First... only have four players. Any more than that gives you rising numbers of hit points and abilities and class features that exponentially add to the group's survivability. More players, more targets, more hit points, more curative magic. Don't let that happen. Stick with four.
Second... go Basic Rules only and curate the cleric's and wizard's spell lists. With only four players you can go Core Four and have a better chance of classes not synergizing with each other to make the PC's functionality get too good. And if you curate the two spell lists... you can remove from them the spells that eliminate the challenges that come from exploration as well as removing negative status effects. Now granted... by not allowing rangers, druids, and paladins you will already be removing spells and features from the game that help with those things (no more immunity from disease from Lay on Hands, no more food from Goodberry, no more "can't get lost" from Natural Explorer etc.), but there are still things in the spell lists that can remove those challenges (Lesser Restoration, I'm looking at you!) Do it.
Third... if you ignore Rule #1 above and decide to have more players than four, then for goodness sake DO NOT give PCs hit points for leveling up. They get their HP totals for 1st level and that is all they are going to get. Ever! No more hit points unless their CON score/modifier raises through ASIs or magic items. People have and will throw out all the different ways to do "gritty" via changing rests times, changing hit dice spending/recovery, adding exhaustion etc. etc. I've done all of them, and I can tell you... when you have 6 or more players none of them work! When your table is too big, the pool of hit points you as DM have to go through to challenge them is too large, and the amount of actions the PCs have to heal each other, rescure each other, and stabilize each other during combat makes any other "gritty" rules pretty much useless. So instead... the only way I've found to really make things gritty for a table of 6 or more players is to drastically reduce the number of hit points they each have. If each of them only has 8 to 12 hit points for an entire day (plus healing, short rests and spells that grant THP), it makes them think about challenges differently. They don't have the stamina to just keep going, they have to find shelter. You also get the bonus of being able to use cool solo monsters of only around CR 5 or so and have them actually be a challenge to the group. Now, you'll probably still end up with the 5 Minute Work Day... but it won't be because of the casters going nova... it'll be from everybody getting their asses kicked after facing off against a half-dozen goblins. That is a GOOD thing, in my opinion. But in truth... just go with Rule #1 instead and not have to worry so much about it.
First... only have four players. Any more than that gives you rising numbers of hit points and abilities and class features that exponentially add to the group's survivability. More players, more targets, more hit points, more curative magic. Don't let that happen. Stick with four.
Second... go Basic Rules only and curate the cleric's and wizard's spell lists. With only four players you can go Core Four and have a better chance of classes not synergizing with each other to make the PC's functionality get too good. And if you curate the two spell lists... you can remove from them the spells that eliminate the challenges that come from exploration as well as removing negative status effects. Now granted... by not allowing rangers, druids, and paladins you will already be removing spells and features from the game that help with those things (no more immunity from disease from Lay on Hands, no more food from Goodberry, no more "can't get lost" from Natural Explorer etc.), but there are still things in the spell lists that can remove those challenges (Lesser Restoration, I'm looking at you!) Do it.
Third... if you ignore Rule #1 above and decide to have more players than four, then for goodness sake DO NOT give PCs hit points for leveling up. They get their HP totals for 1st level and that is all they are going to get. Ever! No more hit points unless their CON score/modifier raises through ASIs or magic items. People have and will throw out all the different ways to do "gritty" via changing rests times, changing hit dice spending/recovery, adding exhaustion etc. etc. I've done all of them, and I can tell you... when you have 6 or more players none of them work! When your table is too big, the pool of hit points you as DM have to go through to challenge them is too large, and the amount of actions the PCs have to heal each other, rescure each other, and stabilize each other during combat makes any other "gritty" rules pretty much useless. So instead... the only way I've found to really make things gritty for a table of 6 or more players is to drastically reduce the number of hit points they each have. If each of them only has 8 to 12 hit points for an entire day (plus healing, short rests and spells that grant THP), it makes them think about challenges differently. They don't have the stamina to just keep going, they have to find shelter. You also get the bonus of being able to use cool solo monsters of only around CR 5 or so and have them actually be a challenge to the group. Now, you'll probably still end up with the 5 Minute Work Day... but it won't be because of the casters going nova... it'll be from everybody getting their asses kicked after facing off against a half-dozen goblins. That is a GOOD thing, in my opinion. But in truth... just go with Rule #1 instead and not have to worry so much about it.
aco175
Legend
I kind of like this. I'm a bit soft so I may give the PCs 4e hit points where they add their Con score at first level to give everyone 20-30HP. Maybe add 1 per level as well. This way they can eventually fight a dragon when they reach 10th level.
lichhouse
Dreamer
Reynard, reading your campaign idea sounds like you are aiming for an old-school style wilderness based sandbox with challenging site-based dungeons out in the wilds. Love it. Plus you want to make sure the players need to do some planning and resource management. Here are some thoughts:
Encumbrance
Use encumbrance. A strength 10 character can carry 150lbs all day, no problem, according to the core rules. That's patently ridiculous (I'm sure lots of folks here are veterans and hauled heavy rucksacks all day - these are extremely fit people and they didn't haul 150lbs). Using encumbrance (PHB p176) that 10 str character is now limited to less than 50lbs. Water and rations are heavy, as well as armor and weapons. Trust me, the carrying capacity will go fast, tough choices will be need to be made, and they'll be looking for pack animals or hirelings and dealing with real logistics.
XP for Gold
I believe this is the biggest change to drive an exploration game (unfortunately it's a big change). Return to a pre-WOTC approach like XP for Gold and little or no XP for fighting. The math is simple to implement, but you need to alter your campaign so there are meaningful uses for money along the way. I prefer allowing building of structures and castles like in older editions and encouraging a settle-the-wilds domain game in downtime.
Part of the reason wilderness fights are unsatisfying is characters go super-nova, they get regular experience for winning an easy encounter, and it's a 5-minute workday (sometimes two fights in a day if random encounter rolls were unkind). Thus many referees want to change the rest system and the healing system so characters don't recover daily in the wilds. Shifting to alternate XP makes wilderness combat a time-waster and distraction from the real goals of exploring dungeons and finding treasure - in other words, return random encounters to acting more like obstacles to be avoided through smart play instead of cakewalk XP.
Leave Utility Magic Alone
I'm of the opinion that you leave utility magic alone and don't overhaul the magic system. If a Druid wants to use their level 1 spells on Goodberry to make up for lack of rations, that's a valid choice and they're hurting their combat abilities to do it. Ditto with Create Water for Clerics. "You're going to wish that was healing word when you're in the dungeon..."
Furthermore, if you go with XP for Gold, there will be plenty of trouble dealing with encumbrance issues for coins, crystals, jewelry, fine statues, and whatever other oddball (and heavy) treasure they recover.
Healing and Gritty Realism
Changing the rest cycle from daily long rest to weekly (or longer durations) has downstream effects on the whole system. One house rule I've heard is simple - just add a level of exhaustion to any character that goes to zero hit points. 5E combat can be a bit like an elevator (up and down, up and down) and this rule may be too punishing, but I intend to try it out and seems to scratch that 'combat damage should be a scary' itch while leaving other systems intact. Each long rest only heals a level of exhaustion so a brutal fight could force several days of rest on a party, which seems to be what you are after (at least until the clerics are high enough to burn lots of lesser restorations).
I used most of these suggestions in my current Tomb of Annihilation campaign, and it's really felt more like 70's D&D (albeit with gonzo over-powered player characters, but the players love it). As the characters level up and the focus of the game changes, it's okay if some of the resource management from lower levels gets easier through magic- it actually feels like an accomplishment after slogging around with rations and worrying about encumbrance.
I'm an old school blogger in the process of making peace with 5E - I posted some of these thoughts a few months ago:
Can 5E Play Like an Old School Game
Make Treasure Great Again
Encumbrance
Use encumbrance. A strength 10 character can carry 150lbs all day, no problem, according to the core rules. That's patently ridiculous (I'm sure lots of folks here are veterans and hauled heavy rucksacks all day - these are extremely fit people and they didn't haul 150lbs). Using encumbrance (PHB p176) that 10 str character is now limited to less than 50lbs. Water and rations are heavy, as well as armor and weapons. Trust me, the carrying capacity will go fast, tough choices will be need to be made, and they'll be looking for pack animals or hirelings and dealing with real logistics.
XP for Gold
I believe this is the biggest change to drive an exploration game (unfortunately it's a big change). Return to a pre-WOTC approach like XP for Gold and little or no XP for fighting. The math is simple to implement, but you need to alter your campaign so there are meaningful uses for money along the way. I prefer allowing building of structures and castles like in older editions and encouraging a settle-the-wilds domain game in downtime.
Part of the reason wilderness fights are unsatisfying is characters go super-nova, they get regular experience for winning an easy encounter, and it's a 5-minute workday (sometimes two fights in a day if random encounter rolls were unkind). Thus many referees want to change the rest system and the healing system so characters don't recover daily in the wilds. Shifting to alternate XP makes wilderness combat a time-waster and distraction from the real goals of exploring dungeons and finding treasure - in other words, return random encounters to acting more like obstacles to be avoided through smart play instead of cakewalk XP.
Leave Utility Magic Alone
I'm of the opinion that you leave utility magic alone and don't overhaul the magic system. If a Druid wants to use their level 1 spells on Goodberry to make up for lack of rations, that's a valid choice and they're hurting their combat abilities to do it. Ditto with Create Water for Clerics. "You're going to wish that was healing word when you're in the dungeon..."
Furthermore, if you go with XP for Gold, there will be plenty of trouble dealing with encumbrance issues for coins, crystals, jewelry, fine statues, and whatever other oddball (and heavy) treasure they recover.
Healing and Gritty Realism
Changing the rest cycle from daily long rest to weekly (or longer durations) has downstream effects on the whole system. One house rule I've heard is simple - just add a level of exhaustion to any character that goes to zero hit points. 5E combat can be a bit like an elevator (up and down, up and down) and this rule may be too punishing, but I intend to try it out and seems to scratch that 'combat damage should be a scary' itch while leaving other systems intact. Each long rest only heals a level of exhaustion so a brutal fight could force several days of rest on a party, which seems to be what you are after (at least until the clerics are high enough to burn lots of lesser restorations).
I used most of these suggestions in my current Tomb of Annihilation campaign, and it's really felt more like 70's D&D (albeit with gonzo over-powered player characters, but the players love it). As the characters level up and the focus of the game changes, it's okay if some of the resource management from lower levels gets easier through magic- it actually feels like an accomplishment after slogging around with rations and worrying about encumbrance.
I'm an old school blogger in the process of making peace with 5E - I posted some of these thoughts a few months ago:
Can 5E Play Like an Old School Game
Make Treasure Great Again
not-so-newguy
Hero
Something I'm considering:
Gain a level of exhaustion when PC drops to 0 hp; but this exhaustion, and only this type of exhaustion, can be removed with a short rest.
The intention is to avoid the "wack-a-mole" situation without forcing the party to retreat or take a 5 Minute work day.
I want to do a level of exhaustion for any failed death save rather than just dropping to 0.
DND_Reborn
The High Aldwin
Any of those exhaustion options work well. We have been doing a level when you reach 0 for a long time now and it helps. PLUS, if you get healed, and go back to 0 AGAIN, it is ANOTHER level of exhaustion! Trust me, the whack-a-mole goes away DARN QUICK!!!
For the new game where I am nerfing HP, I've added a benefit to high CON (because HP bonuses aren't related to CON in our games). Your CON mod gives you "free" levels of exhaustion. They still have to be recovered normally (i.e. a long rest), but you won't feel the negative effects until the free levels are spent.
For the new game where I am nerfing HP, I've added a benefit to high CON (because HP bonuses aren't related to CON in our games). Your CON mod gives you "free" levels of exhaustion. They still have to be recovered normally (i.e. a long rest), but you won't feel the negative effects until the free levels are spent.
Laurefindel
Legend
I think a curated spell list for all casters would go along way to achieve this goal*, and a slower magic regeneration (aka longer or less available long rests) would make foraging/climbing/stealthing the #1 option, and magic a fallback solution.
I've seen a few propositions of "food as rest" or variations on the idea that rest must be prepared, long rest only in established camp, hit dice healing only with meal/water etc.
*(actually, I think curated and re-shuffled spell lists is the way to achieve low-magic in D&D, but that is another subject)
DND_Reborn
The High Aldwin
This isn't bad and I might go that way myself.
One other thing that bugs me about death saves (so we changed them) is the flat DC 10 check. Screw that. How does that make any sense?
A PC with CON 6 (-2 mod) has the same chance to stabilize as a CON 20 (+5) PC??? Ridiculous. Higher CON means better health in general, and you are more likely to recover from serious injury.
So, make it a CON check, but make the DC 15. That pasty, snot-nosed sickly character with CON 6 will have to roll 17 or higher! In other words, get him HELP! That pro-athlete, health-nut with CON 20 only needs a 10 and has a 60% chance (roughly) of stabilizing without help at all.
Makes more sense to me.
EDIT: also makes things like Remarkable Athlete and Jack-of-all-Trades better because your half prof bonus will apply to this check! Again, makes sense with Remarkable Athlete and bards should be better at self-stabilizing because they got beat up all the time growing up and no one wants to help them now.
Flamestrike
Legend
The effect of it is that it pushes players towards the 5MWD. When they get exhaustion levels, they'll be much more inclined to long rest.
The effect of the rule is you'll see more long resting, and more 5MWD's.
I'd avoid it.
Here's the list of guidelines I sent to my group for a playtest this week just to see what we may or may not cover in a 3 or 4 hour session:
CORE BOOKS ONLY
Create 4th level characters.
Available Backgrounds: all PHB backgrounds
Available Races: Human, Dwarf, Elf, Half-Elf, Half-Orc, Halfling. NOTE: Any race that has Darkvision has Low light vision instead.
Available Classes (and Archetypes): Barbarian (Berserker), Bard (Lore), Cleric (Knowledge, Life or War), Fighter (Champion or Battle Master), Paladin (Devotion), Ranger (Hunter), Rogue (Thief), Wizard (all PHB traditions allowed).
No feats. No multiclassing.
Equipment: Starting equipment plus up to 200 gp additional gear. No magic items.
Spells: The following spells are banned
Continual Flame, Create or Destroy Water, Darkvision, Gentle Repose, Goodberry, Purify Food and Drink, Rope Trick
OPTIONAL RULES IN PLACE
Slow Natural healing: You only heal by way of spending hit dice, which you recover normally (½ your total after a long rest).
If you use a healing kit and succeed at a DC 15 medicine check, you may spend hit dice outside of a short rest by taking 10 minutes.
If you are not safe and secure (such as in town or a fortress), Short rests take 8 hours and long rests take 72 hours. When in town or similar, normal rests apply.
On a failed death saving throw you gain a level of exhaustion.
Encumbrance will be counted, along with consumables such as ammo, rations and components.
Lingering injuries on critical hit.
Madness.
Massive damage.
NPC/monster Morale checks.
CORE BOOKS ONLY
Create 4th level characters.
Available Backgrounds: all PHB backgrounds
Available Races: Human, Dwarf, Elf, Half-Elf, Half-Orc, Halfling. NOTE: Any race that has Darkvision has Low light vision instead.
Available Classes (and Archetypes): Barbarian (Berserker), Bard (Lore), Cleric (Knowledge, Life or War), Fighter (Champion or Battle Master), Paladin (Devotion), Ranger (Hunter), Rogue (Thief), Wizard (all PHB traditions allowed).
No feats. No multiclassing.
Equipment: Starting equipment plus up to 200 gp additional gear. No magic items.
Spells: The following spells are banned
Continual Flame, Create or Destroy Water, Darkvision, Gentle Repose, Goodberry, Purify Food and Drink, Rope Trick
OPTIONAL RULES IN PLACE
Slow Natural healing: You only heal by way of spending hit dice, which you recover normally (½ your total after a long rest).
If you use a healing kit and succeed at a DC 15 medicine check, you may spend hit dice outside of a short rest by taking 10 minutes.
If you are not safe and secure (such as in town or a fortress), Short rests take 8 hours and long rests take 72 hours. When in town or similar, normal rests apply.
On a failed death saving throw you gain a level of exhaustion.
Encumbrance will be counted, along with consumables such as ammo, rations and components.
Lingering injuries on critical hit.
Madness.
Massive damage.
NPC/monster Morale checks.
DND_Reborn
The High Aldwin
Well, that really isn't up to the players, is it? It is up to the DM.
We rarely get long rests during an adventure or while traveling unless we know we can expect relative safety. As I wrote we've been playing that 0 hp imposes a level of exhaustion and we've had characters recover full HP through healing, but have 2 or even 3 lingering levels of exhaustion but still "on the adventure" simply because we aren't at a point where we can take a long rest.
The idea of the 5MWD is completely at the whim of the DM IMO. If you don't want it, just don't let it happen.
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