Help me challenge my 12th level party with hobgobolins!

[ByteRynn]

For sets of pretty mighty hobgoblin stats to combine in your own special ways, you might pick up Red Hand of Doom and flip to the back. Lots of leveled Hobgoblins to fill a variety of roles.

 

[Delta]

Help me challenge my 12th level party with hobgobolins!

Can't do it, I've tried. There's a common school of thought in D&D that with proper tactics, enough humanoids can challenge any party, but it's not so. (Re: "Tucker's Kobolds"). In short, at 12th level, attack bonuses are too high for PCs to miss, and ACs are too high for hobgoblins to hit. Like I say -- I've tried and it just turns into long periods of DM rolling miss-miss-miss... looking for a natural 20.

To really turn it into a challenge you've got to break some existing principles of the D&D milieu.
(1) You could add gobs of class levels to hobgoblins... you'd need to break the "Organization" specification in the MM to do that.
(2) You could give them loys of magic items... breaking the NPC "Wealth by Level" guidelines.
(3) You could set up some kind of killer traps against the PCs... similarly breaking the trap-construction rules for the hobgoblin skill & wealth level.
(4) You could use those Mob rules in the DMGII... which themselves statistically rupture the way man-to-man combat resolves in D&D.

The way D&D is set up, 12th level PCs really are advanced beyond hobgoblins being a threat. The determined DM can convince himself that they are a threat... but truthfully he winds up challenging them with some non-book-hobgoblin threat instead.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Can't do it, I've tried. There's a common school of thought in D&D that with proper tactics, enough humanoids can challenge any party, but it's not so. (Re: "Tucker's Kobolds"). In short, at 12th level, attack bonuses are too high for PCs to miss, and ACs are too high for hobgoblins to hit. Like I say -- I've tried and it just turns into long periods of DM rolling miss-miss-miss... looking for a natural 20.

I'm sorry to hear that was your result, but I'm sure that it is possible. Especially in this case, when magic items are relatively rare, they might have AC's in the low 20s, for instance. Aid Another is a big friend here, as are simple things that affect mobility (tanglefoot bags?) and attacks that rely upon touch attacks to succeed can also be helpful.

The hobgoblin tribe lives in terrain where there are lots of foes that can mince them in HTH combat, so I would imagine that they would rely a lot upon concentrated missile fire and mobility, prepared defensive positions (mantlets to give their archers +8 Cover bonus to AC for instance).

As a specific tactic that nobody has actually mentioned... the party are going to be in a valley between two mountains; it seems to me that the best kind of trap that the hobgoblins could set would be an avalanche trap. Read up on avalanches in the DMG - if you catch a good number of PCs in the bury zone, it can really turn the tide for the hobgoblins.

Cheers

 

[ashockney]

My Dragonlance group is going to pass trough one of the deadliest areas of the world, and it’s filled with hobgoblins.

When I told them that it was a very dangerous place, and that few came back alive, they surely felt they were safe, after all, “they’re only hobgoblins, what can they do against a 12th level party”…

It’s time for En World to prove them wrong!

Ok, here's another twist.

If it's one of the deadliest areas of the world, what if the hobgoblins are just the cleanup crew?

I'm picturing the mountains themselves turning on the party. Stone golems, Xorn, Delvers, Umber Hulks, and so on.

 

[Storyteller01]

What tech do the hobgoblins have?

Ankle break traps are effective at slowing a group, and they're simple to make (dig a three inch deep foot sized hole). It'll either slow the characters or force them to go through healing faster.

Do they have rudimentary gunpowder or some other simple explosives? Go for simple mines. High search DC (sounds like your party doesn't have too much invested in that skill) and it's undetectable via magic. If they can make the explosive, wrapping it in sharp rocks, scrap metal, etc should be easy.

As Plane Sailling mentioned, avalanche traps work well. If you want to get evil, use other materials where the trails bottle neck. Hot oil or pitch, mass of arrows (give you hob archers multi-shot; something will get through ).

If you want to get even MORE evil, close the bottle neck with large boulders at either end before you drop the oil/rocks/arrows/all three at once.

Pit traps/tiger traps are a classic, but rocky terrain may make that unrealistic.

Depending and the flora around, you could make minor catapult traps. They hit the tripwire/trigger/what ever, and the saplings attached rain down thunderstones encased in glass.

Giants make great catapults! Have them throw pre-made 'boulders' possibly filled with greek fire or insect swarms.

Controlled slides: Have part of a ledge or narrow cliff rigged to give either when a given weight passes over or on command (or both...). Those who fail fall further down the cliff into sharpened rocks (they camoflage nicely). If they're going up the mountain, getting injured AND having to regain ground gets annoying. If you rig it right, when the characters get back the the collapsed section, a large enough portion may be taken out so that they have to make rolls (climb, jump, rope use, etc) to atempt to cross.

Rig bridges to give way.

Flaming logs/cabers instead of forces avalanches are always fun.

Pit traps filled with acid destroys armor...

 

[Lord Zardoz]

Can't do it, I've tried. There's a common school of thought in D&D that with proper tactics, enough humanoids can challenge any party, but it's not so. (Re: "Tucker's Kobolds"). In short, at 12th level, attack bonuses are too high for PCs to miss, and ACs are too high for hobgoblins to hit. Like I say -- I've tried and it just turns into long periods of DM rolling miss-miss-miss... looking for a natural 20.

This is a reasonably valid point. In order for the Hobgoblins to be a threat, you need to be able to have the hobgoblins damage the players. If the players all have high enough AC values, then you really are just fishing for 20's.

But if you can get it to a point where a standard issue hobgoblin can score a hit on an 18 or better, relying on no bonuses other than his Bab, then you can get somewhere with it. Getting to that point is not going to be easy, since most players react violently to having their gear tampered with, destroyed, or stolen.

But you also need to remember, Delta, that in that Tuckers example, that DM did more than just throw swarms of Kobolds at his players. Those kobolds were killing pack animals and henchmen, pushing burning debris at the players, and getting use of tunnels that were too small for the players to move around. When your putting low level humanoids against your players, you must do everything you can that can inflict damage without making melee attacks.

If you just uses masses of Kobolds against 12th level fighters, your screwed. They can use just enough power attack to guarantee 1 hit kills with cleave and they will be mowing down the Hobgoblins at a scary rate. If someone has a spiked chain, they can wipe out more than a dozen with great cleave.

But if you can force the players into a bad position, things can turn very fast. The presence of one warrior who can score Disarms against the players will dramatically improve the hobgoblins chances. And if you can find a way to have Hobgoblins hit on 17 or 18 with missile weapons, you can easily just keep some distances and pincushion the players.

In short, I think it can be done, but you do have to create situations where the Hobgoblins can do the job. That means finding enough to hit bonuses to overcome a high AC, or finding a way to make touch attacks do the job.

That, or you have to go with my original suggestion of a straight up fight against 12 000 Hobgoblins and force it to the last man standing.

END COMMUNICATION

 

[Lord Zardoz]

On the subject of AC...

What are the AC, to hit bonuses, and damage output of the party of 12th level characters in question? And how many have Cleave or Great Cleave?

END COMMUNICATION

 

[Gold Roger]

Just shooting out some ideas:

-lots of bards (give them Warhorns and lingering song so they have to spend only one turn on music) and if you use the books marshals from the miniature handbook and Crusader and Warblades from the tome of battle using devoted spirit and white raven maneuvers.

-If you've got cliffs or mountains they can set up avalanches.

-Hobgoblin "adventurer groups", that are formed more like modern day elite striketeams. At this level they can even "scry-buff-teleport".

-Likewise scry-buff-teleport should be a long known tactic to them. Have most leaders either be or be protected by a caster with both detect scrying and anticipate teleport.

-There's a teamwork benefit in the PHB2 that needs only lots of 1st level archers and one ad best mid level leader, that, if I remember correctly, gives every archer +1 per other member shoting in the group. Scary .

-At this level the hobgoblins are bound to keep some devils around.

-Warbeasts. Remember hobgoblins have no Cha penalty and are likely to have bards, so them convincing low int (6-8) beasts to work with them isn't unlikely. I'm personally a big fan of Behir in greatplate "tanks".

-If you have a brutish female character in the group, one hobgoblin that challenged her, got beaten and lived to tell the tale might fall in love with this inadvertly ideal of hobgoblinish "beauty" and have him resolve to get a better fighter so he can win her as his wife in a second duel. Or have him ask after he has beaten her in the initial fight. Or have a female hobgoblin ask this a male character and the mariage is the only way to get save passage for the group...

-Use unit tactics. Hobgoblins don't work in hordes, they build armies.

-Retreat when necessary and gather intelligence. A martial society like the Hobgoblin one knows how important it is to know your enemy. Use divinations.

-Remember that hobgoblins are a martial society of humanoids that have no average stat lower than humkans. One would think there's plenty of higher level guys among these tough constantly warring people.

-More to throw a curveball than making them dangerous, have them act clever in war, but honorable. The scry-buff-telekill group may first call out to them to prepare themselfes for battle instead of directly attacking.

Have the PC's come upon huge warcamps and instead of letting them slaughter endless warrior 1 hobgobs, have the champions of the army challenge them and let them pass when those champions loose. Have them heed the rules of law. If they loose but fought valiantly have the hobgoblins take their surrender, maybe even adoption into the clan.

Have human, dwarfen oder even elven warriors that where former captives that have adopted the brutal but honorable way of hobgoblins.

Have them infuriated if the PC's act dishonorable. Imagine the face on your players face when they get rid of some prisoners the fast way and later get captured and that obviously evil clad-in-cured-elvenskin warlord gives a speech to a gathered lynchmob how the prisoners won't be slain to show how "the way of the hobgoblins is morally superior to that of the soft and dishonorable scum".

Have a old dieing hobgoblin veteran ask the PC's to take his head and carry it as trophy to honor his worth as warrior. As bonus have him old and beaten, but alive and have him ask it before he attacks one last time-to fall in valiant battle with a worthy foe.

-There are most likely many different clans with very warlike politics between them. Navigating these politics may actually be the true challenge here.

 

[Lord Zardoz]

Some decent ideas, Gold Roger. Though it sounds like your particular brand of Hobgoblins have forehead ridges, and use Bat'leths. Nothing wrong with it, but its not my particular flavor of Hobgoblin.

Numerous Bards wont quite work, since Morale bonus's do not stack (unless I am mistaken).

I do suggest having at least one of the leaders being a 10th level Expert Tactitian (Prestige class from the Dragonlance Campaign Setting, would probably be Fighter 5, ExT 10). Have him hang back or otherwise benefit from protection, and he can give a +4 morale bonus to hit and damage to those fighting within 30 feet of him. Throw in the Direct Troops ability for an additional +2 Competence bonus to hit, and a Prayer spell for +1 luck bonus to hit and damage, and you can have every Archer within 30 feet of this guy attacking at +7 to hit and +5 to damage. I am sure you can find some magic items to further enhance these effects.

If you can work out a reasonable way for him to be in melee range of the players without being slaughtered on sight, you can do some scary damage (I would use a contingency Teleport keyed to Hp, circumstances permitting).

Another dragonlance specific thing that may work for you is that if you can also throw in some Baaz Draconian mercenaries, you might also be able to forcibly disarm the players as they kill the Baaz.

END COMMUNICATION

 

[Gold Roger]

Some decent ideas, Gold Roger. Though it sounds like your particular brand of Hobgoblins have forehead ridges, and use Bat'leths. Nothing wrong with it, but its not my particular flavor of Hobgoblin.

Actually, I've never been a great fan of Klingons. I was just thinking how a martialistic LE of creature with those stats might look like. I guess some paralells are bound to happen and more can be easily drawn. But I think there are also some significant differences between the two (as far as I know klingons aren't keen on prisoners or being taken cative).

Not that I want to impose my idea of hobgoblins on anyone. I just think goblinoids are generally underdeveloped and wanted to make some suggestions based on my earlier thoughts.

Numerous Bards wont quite work, since Morale bonus's do not stack (unless I am mistaken).

Well, I meant that more in the sense that most fighting forces should have one bard, not of fighting forces made of bards. You're right that the boni wouldn't stack.