D&D 5E Help Me Combine the Wizard and Sorcerer Classes (+)

[el-remmen]

So as part of my Vanity Frankenstein 5E project (i.e. building my own version of the game using any and all previous [and current] editions and variants and homebrew stuff), I am redoing every class and giving each 3 subclass choices.

One thing I am considering is combining the two arcane classes into one class with subclasses determining the difference. I was never a fan of the sorcerer when it first appeared in 3E (I replaced it with a homebrew Witch class back then) and while I allowed it when I started running 5E I still find it superfluous.

So my idea is to replace the Wizard and Sorcerer bases with the Mage class. This class starts with some innate magic - but at 3rd level when subclass choice time arrives, they have to decide how they will continue their study of magic.

If they want to go the scholarly/sagely route they take the wizard subclass. When you choose it, you may take a specialty in a school of magic, but rather than each being its own subclass, each gives you a bonus to learning spells of that school and you cast them a little better (still working out those details). They need spell books, etc to prepare and cast spells above 1st level.

If you want to continue the innate magic path, you become a Sorcerer, basically a wild mage, with manipulating raw magic and choosing various metamagic abilities. Taking the "quick path" makes it more likely to have additional unpredictable effects to your spells when you cast them - some good, some bad, some great, some worse.

The final subclass is the most up in the air conceptually, but I am thinking of some kind of elementalist class that may use runes.

Anyway, with the caveat that this is a "+" thread - anybody have ideas for moving forward with this basic idea? I am totally willing to crib things off any edition or other game.

Oh and in case it is relevant, my version of 5E has been squoshed down to 10 levels and you get feats (or ASIs) at 4th, 8th, and 10th levels - and I have increased the XP needed to go up each level a bit, making it take longer to advance. This means that in general there will be no spells above 5th level (tho I plan to occasionally make the "older magic" available - 6th+ level spells - via scrolls or magic items and am considering that capstone ability will be choose a higher level spell outside the bounds of what the class gets that can be cast as a ritual and/or under limited circumstances).

I will leave it at that for now, despite having a few other ideas, because I am interested in what other people come up with and leaving it open will potentially give me the most raw material to work with even if the details don't fit the specific game vibe I am going for.

 

[Stormonu]

Having a Mage class with Sorcerer/Wizard split via subclass (maybe throw Warlock in there too somehow?) is a great idea. If you do so, I suggest that at 1st level you have the character choose their "source" or style of magic. You can then throw in the various Wizard specialists, Warlock patrons and Sorcerer "Bloodlines/Paths", with each having a requirement of a specific source of magic. Maybe make more sources if you are so inclined.

SOURCES

Spellbook: Your character's spell power comes from memorization. They keep their spells in a spellbook. This allows you to store additional spells that you can swap in an out of being prepared spells.

Innate: Your character's spell power comes from an innate ability to control raw magic. This gives you spell points based on your hit dice, which you can use to cast extra spells or alter magic via metamagics.

Pact: Your character's spell power comes from an agreement with a supernatural being of great power who loans spell power to you. You gain access to invocations that grant you unique or repeatable abilities.

 

[Reynard]

I think a Warlock variant would be a good thematic third choice. Wizards study. Sorcerers embrace their natural talent. But warlocks circumvent the studying by being granted arcane knowledge -- for a price.

 

[el-remmen]

(maybe throw Warlock in there too somehow?)

I think a Warlock variant would be a good thematic third choice. Wizards study. Sorcerers embrace their natural talent. But warlocks circumvent the studying by being granted arcane knowledge -- for a price.

I considered this approach - but right now I am actually making the warlock class as a kind of alternate cleric. Clerics worship one of the 13 Gods accepted as legit by mainstream society, while Warlocks make pacts with the Under Gods (demons, devils, other extraplanar beings, even alternate or syncretic forms of the 13 Gods) and are more "culty" for lack of a better term.

 

[DeviousQuail]

For an elemental (or not) based rune subclass I think starting from the UA Rune Priest and 5e Rune Knight works well. You use your spell slots to make runes that are applied to weapons, armor, jewelry, paper, coins, etc. The Rune Priest runes had simple and complex properties whereas the Rune Knight runes have a passive and active effect. I can see a Rune Mage being able to cast spells or create effects through their runes that are more powerful when they use higher level spells. You might have some spells, especially if you're waiting until 3rd level for the subclass. They just won't be the focus the same way they are for the Wizard and Sorcerer.

 

[CreamCloud0]

sounds interesting though if i might throw in my own two cents, i personally would avoid leaning too heavily on having wild magic be 'the thing' for the sorcerer and stick to the metamagic flexibility, wild magic effects are, well, IMO more a gimmick than something you want your build to rely on, especially with no way to hedge your bets on the effects.

as an alternative to warlock filling out the triad what about the bard? going for more of a mind-body-spirit trio with wizard and sorcerer. wizards specialise in mastering certain types of magic, sorcerers specialise in modifying how the magic they have functions and bards specialise in accessing and mimicing lots of different kinds of magic with magical secrets, i don't know if DnD ever really had a proper spell-mimic but you might take some inspiration and riff off this ability the arcane trickster had but with less stealing vibes and more replication:

Spell Thief​

At 17th level, you gain the ability to magically steal the knowledge of how to cast a spell from another spellcaster.

Immediately after a creature casts a spell that targets you or includes you in its area of effect, you can use your reaction to force the creature to make a saving throw with its spellcasting ability modifier. The DC equals your spell save DC. On a failed save, you negate the spell's effect against you, and you steal the knowledge of the spell if it is at least 1st level and of a level you can cast (it doesn't need to be a wizard spell). For the next 8 hours, you know the spell and can cast it using your spell slots. The creature can't cast that spell until the 8 hours have passed.

Once you use this feature, you can't use it again until you finish a long rest.

if you want an overarching mechanic for the class i feel like spell points are the most obvious, sorcerer naturally uses them for metamagic, wizard uses them to reduce the cost of their favoured spells or as a currency for a version of that quick-memorisation feature they got to swap out their spells on the fly, and bard can use them as currency for either their mimicry or their bardic inspiration if they keep that in your version of the class.

edit,
wizard: "magic is a science to be researched and perfected"
sorcerer: "magic is a muscle to be strengthened and trained"
bard: "magic is an artform to be experienced and expressed"

 

[dracomilan]

i personally would avoid leaning too heavily on having wild magic be 'the thing' for the sorcerer

I've always considered wild magic to be more a Wizard thing than a Sorcerer thing, so I agree. To clarify, here is what I consider a Wild Mage.

So I would see a Wizard with spell points to swap prepared spells, a Sorcerer with spell points to do metamagic and a... Mentalist with spell points to power up spells?

 

[Horwath]

I always liked the sorcerer small number of spell preparation + 10 extra spells depending on theme of the caster.

So take sorcerer 2014 spell known as chassis with metamagic.
Add 1st level ritual feat that you can write ritual spells into the book, you have all your spells known with ritual tag in your ritual book, but any spell with ritual tag is not placed in your spells known to be casted via spell slot.

spell list from both wizard and sorcerer for spells known, ritual book for all spells that are rituals.

spell themes:

Healer;
cantrips; resistance, spare the dying
level 1; cure wounds, healing word
level 2; lesser restoration, healing spirit
level 3; mass healing word, revivify
level 4; Aura of light, death ward
level 5; mass cure wound, raise dead

Necromancer;
cantrips; chill touch, toll the dead
level 1; false life, inflict wounds
level 2; blindness/deafness, ray of enfeeblement
level 3; animate dead, summon undead
level 4; blight, shadow of moil
level 5; dance macabre, enervation

Kineticist;
cantrips; eldritch blast, mage hand
level 1; magic missile, shield
level 2; levitate, kinetic jaunt
level 3; fly, haste
level 4; Mordekainen's faithful hound, Otiluke's resilient sphere
level 5; animate objects, telekinesis

Traveler;
cantrips; guidance, mage hand
level 1; expeditious retreat, longstrider
level 2; misty step, vortex warp
level 3; thunder step, gaseous form
level 4; dimension door, find greater steed
level 5; passwall, teleportation circle

Greenseer;
cantrips; primal savagery, thorn whip
level 1; entangle, fog cloud
level 2; spike growth, pass without trace
level 3; plant growth, summon fey
level 4; guardian of nature, summon elemental
level 5; insect plague, wrath of nature

Pyromancer;
cantrips; firebolt, greenflame blade
level 1; burning hands, hellish rebuke
level 2; scorching ray, heat metal
level 3; fireball, ashardalon's stride
level 4; fireshield(fire), summon elemental(fire)
level 5; immolation, summon draconic spirit(fire)

Mindbender:
cantrips; friends, mind sliver
level 1; charm person, dissonant whispers
level 2; hold person, suggestion
level 3; enemies abound, fear
level 4; charm monster, phantasmal killer
level 5; dominate person, modify memory

Illusionist;
cantrips; message, minor image
level 1; disguise self, minor image
level 2; invisibility, mirror image
level 3; hypnotic patter, major image
level 4; greater invisibility, hallucinatory terrain
level 5; dream, seeming

Defender;
cantrips; bladeward, sword burst
level 1; absorb elements, armor of agathys
level 2; aid, blur
level 3; counterspell, dispel magic
level 4; banishment, freedom of movement
level 5; bigbies hand, dispel good and evil

add 3rd, 6th, 10th, 14th level subclass features fitting the theme of the spells

 

[el-remmen]

I went ahead and created a version of this a while ago, but ended up scrapping the Elementalist subclass (for now) b/c I was really unsatisfied with it. I am satisfied (for now) with the version of the Mage class I made with Wizard and Sorcerer as the two subclasses.

Since I am re-introducing alignment as a mechanical aspect to the game along Law/Chaos access - wizards represent a lawful and orderly approach to magic, while sorcerers access Chaos and wild magic. Most arcane spellcasters (i.e. NPCs) are just mages who never go beyond 2nd level equivalent.

I have also adopted a spellcheck system for cantrips, so you can not guaranteed unlimited access to them.

 

[Stalker0]

So some of the foundational questions to get out of the way:

1) Will this class be able to utilize int vs cha....or will it use one of those stats?

2) Is the source of magic selected at 1st level (which does go against the grain a bit of 2024 5e design) or chosen at 3rd level when classes normally get subclass options?

So its a bit tricky if you want number 1 to use both....but you want the selection to be 3rd level....as you get a thematic split where they were using one stat from 1st and 2nd level but suddenly shift to another stat.


So I do think the best option is to make that selection at 1st level and allow both choices (level up did this with the warlock for example, giving them the option to use int or cha for their spellcasting).

Beyond that, so then the question becomes....what is the essence of the sorceror you want to package into a subclass? The risk is always packing in to much because you want to reflect all of what the sorc was (which is a full class) into a subclass....and that just doesnt' work.

So you really need to boil down to exactly what you want from the sorc chassis....and no more. You could argue that its the metamagic....you could go for the wild magic concept....but you can't get it all.