Help me convince my DM that monks aren't broken

[Dandu]

Your failure should haunt you forever.

I'm actually now curious about how the DM's monks get to have crazy AC and damage since it's mathematically demonstrable that monks lag behind people who just put on a suit of armor, grab a greatsword, and allocate their largest stat into strength.

I do suspect that custom items were involved. Call it a sneaking suspicion.

 

[Visigani]

The monk is the only other core class, aside from the barbarian, that has no dead levels. Players always have something to look forward to with the monk, which boasts the most colorful and unique special abilities of all the character classes.

Further, it is extremely difficult to break the monk. It is what it is the entire game through and extremely proficient players and relatively new players won't have the vast chasm of ability that you would get between a new cleric and someone who really knows how to roll a cleric.

 

[Jackinthegreen]

Well, if a level 20 Monk was dead set on AC, he'd at least do the following:

Start with 18 Wis. Improve this by 10 through leveling and a Tome of Understanding. Add in a +6 Periapt of Wisdom, so we're looking at 34 Wis now for a +12 mod. Add in the Monk's natural +4 AC and we're at +16.

26 AC... Yeah, crappy so far.

Bracers of Armor +8. Woohoo, 34 AC now!

Dusty Rose Ioun Stone: +1 Insight AC

Let's get ridiculous and say he also started at 18 Dex and used a Manual of Quickness of Action to up it to 23, and then Gloves of Dexterity +6, so 29 for a +9 bonus.

44 so far, which is decent. Combat Expertise for another +5 I guess. I'd say add a Monk's Belt in there, but +1 AC is laughable.

The cost for this AC is likewise laughable though at nearly double a level 20 character's WBL.

Weapon Finesse and Power Attack might give some decent damage, but it's still 2d10 damage. Enlarge a Goliath Fighter 1 with EWP: Fullblade and he's doing 4d8 base damage per hit or something? Yeah, 18 base average damage right there.

And Visi, in my experience clerics roll quite well. Down hills.

 

[Wyvernhand]

Goliaths aren't legal targets for Enlarge Person because they aren't "people". If you keep treating them like people, they'll eventually want to vote, or something silly like that.

That, and fullblades are just large sized bastard swords imported in to a system that changed how weapon sizes work, so the rules are kinda wierd.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

If you don't mind being saddled with the +2LA, use a Githzerai (yes, a non-PHB race) Without class, Wis or Item bonuses, a 1st LVL Githzerai monk (ECL 3), can start with a Dex of 24 (+7AC) plus the psi-like ability to manifest Inertial Armor (+4AC). Although I don't remember uses/day, that simply don't suck for 3rd level AC.

 

[Tilenas]

If you don't mind being saddled with the +2LA, use a Githzerai (yes, a non-PHB race) Without class, Wis or Item bonuses, a 1st LVL Githzerai monk (ECL 3), can start with a Dex of 24 (+7AC) plus the psi-like ability to manifest Inertial Armor (+4AC). Although I don't remember uses/day, that simply don't suck for 3rd level AC.

All the Githzerai's PLAs are 3/day, except for plane shift, which is once a day, and only available at Level 11+.

If you want to play the Gith without the level adjustment, take a look at the racial classes in Complete Psionic.

I am currently playing a nerfed (LA +0) Gith Monk, but I am going to take two Githzerai "levels" in between to get the racial abilities back.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

All the Githzerai's PLAs are 3/day, except for plane shift, which is once a day, and only available at Level 11+.

Thanks for posting that here! Even though that's only 3/day, that's still enough to carry you through most of your tough fights IME.

As for the rest of it, I never thought WotC got the "LA to Levels" conversion right- Mr. Cook's racial classes from AU/AE did a much better job IMHO. Of course, adapting that method to D&D requires a bit of effort, since there are no Gith, Bugbears, etc. in the default of that setting.

And still better than WotC's attempts in 3.5Ed was how TSR handled it in 2Ed. Your PC starts off more powerful, yes, but essentially stagnated until the rest of the party caught up because you had to earn all those extra XP to get your next level.

One such PC, a Minotaur Ftr/MU, was amazingly potent in combat with his oversized Axe and Longbow as compared to his low-level compatriots...but he took Large creature damage and didn't get any extra HP or other improvements for some time. It was very flavorful having him in the party as a standout threat. Then everyone caught up.

 

[Herobizkit]

My advice is either going to be repeated, or better advice already exists.

Go Fighter/Cleric.
Take Improved Unarmed Strike as one of your feats.
Take Two-Weapon Fighting as one of your feats.

See if you can get BAB up to +8 and take Stunning Fist as one of your bonus feats.

Huzzah.

 

[Empirate]

OP, as much as I sympathize with your problem (retarded DMs are retarded), this is not a mechanics-related issue. It's a people-related issue. Your DM is being a douche about something, and is adamant in staying douchy where this something is concerned. People do that all the time, and the only thing you can really do about it is live with it.

Your boss keeps complaining about the number of hardcopy printouts you make, but conveniently neglects to see how many work-related xeroxes you pay out of your own purse. Your mom insists on spending more time with your baby kid than you can yourself, due to your workload. Your best friend talks smack about you behind your back "without meaning to", and keeps saying he's "sorry he got misunderstood". A poster at ENWorld persists in not understanding the mechanics of D&D, even though you told him a hundred times.

People are like that. That doesn't mean they're bad persons, of course. People can get on your nerves and still be your friends. If you still like them, like to hang with them, and like to play their game, you best adapt. You won't change their opinion - it's hard to change another person's view, and "evidence" collected on an internet forum won't do the trick most of the time.


So my advice to you is the following: go talk to him. Tell him how you don't see Monks as unbalanced. Tell him you'd like to play one, and how the game will not be as fun for you if you can't do that. Tell him how the game is supposed to be fun for everybody, and how the DM's job is to make that happen. Ask him to let you play a Monk and not saddle you with restrictions that would destroy your fun. If he replies that he doesn't want you to break the game, tell him it's not your intent at all, and that you believe you'll be able to play a Monk without breaking the game. Ask him to tell you whenever your Monk threatens his and everybody else's fun.

If he lets you play a Monk, play one. Demonstrate to everybody how Monks aren't as problematic as they think they are. If he doesn't let you play a Monk, play something else, but remind him from time to time that it was you who made a concession to keep the game going and fun. Expect respectful treatment, and a certain readiness to let you have fun, as well.

 

[Borthos]

Well I have talked to him, transcripts are above on his reasons why. We played this past weekend and I was shown up by the barbarian in both atk/dmg and saves due to the ridiculous point buy. We had a bit of mid game downtime for meals and I talked to the other 2 players, new to our group, and both of them also say monks are broken, but also say everything in 3.5 is broken for better or worse.