VenerableBede
Adventurer
This is why I should always consult the book first.
Level Up (A5E) Help me make a necromancer archetype
- Thread starter Morrus
- Start date
VenerableBede
Adventurer
Sometimes an exciting, unique archetype is worth the risk.
“Minions that you create cannot create or summon other creatures” could be added to help prevent abuse.
“Minions that you create cannot create or summon other creatures” could be added to help prevent abuse.
Yeah that sounds like it solves the problem neatly.
So there is already the spell slot to minion conversion available from the create undead and animate dead spells. Maybe you could turn that higher level minion control feature into an expansion of those spells?
As written, Create Undead works out to letting you create/control CR equal to Spell Level-3, with no creature higher than CR 3. Given the slot is the resource spent, because the archetypes gives you access to both Animate Dead/Create Dead, you could maybe weird it as an expansion to those?
Perhaps you could add a rider in to Army of Darkness that messes with that math, something like "You can create/control a greater variety of undead creatures using the Animate Dead and Create Undead spells. You can create or control any undead creatures of CR up to 1/2 your wizard level. Controlling or creating an undead requires a spell cast at a level equal to its CR-2. You may add the spell level of several animate or create dead cast directly after each other together, as long as you are uninstalled while casting them."
That's super poorly worded, but the idea is to allow a broad spell slots to minions trade-off, with more variety than the base spells allow.
As written, Create Undead works out to letting you create/control CR equal to Spell Level-3, with no creature higher than CR 3. Given the slot is the resource spent, because the archetypes gives you access to both Animate Dead/Create Dead, you could maybe weird it as an expansion to those?
Perhaps you could add a rider in to Army of Darkness that messes with that math, something like "You can create/control a greater variety of undead creatures using the Animate Dead and Create Undead spells. You can create or control any undead creatures of CR up to 1/2 your wizard level. Controlling or creating an undead requires a spell cast at a level equal to its CR-2. You may add the spell level of several animate or create dead cast directly after each other together, as long as you are uninstalled while casting them."
That's super poorly worded, but the idea is to allow a broad spell slots to minions trade-off, with more variety than the base spells allow.
VenerableBede
Adventurer
This makes me want to start a completely tangential conversation about the risks versus rewards of unexplored territory/pushing the boundaries in game design, as well as the responsibilities of the designer in making the game verses the responsibilities of the player in playing the game. For example, yes, the designer should try to think through an ability thoroughly and, if something problematic is discovered, try to iron it out. But not every ability needs to have lots of extra text trying to beat out how it works with every single other mechanic in the game, and not every problem can be thought of in advance (or even reasonably should be—really interesting abilities can be made cumbersome, bland, or completely lose focus by trying to prepare them for every eventuality). On the other hand, a player discovering an unintentionally broken mechanic (or intentionally left-in but very obscure fine detail) has the responsibility to not abuse that knowledge at tables where doing so would decrease the fun for everyone. This, of course, leaves in the potential for such things to still be used at tables where abusing powerful mechanics and finding loopholes is a major part of the fun. I've played at both tables and both only work when all players are "playing the game right" for that specific table.
Anyway, to try and keep this short, to me I think it's good to take well thought-out risks in design if it produces something genuinely fun and creative, even if it has hard-to-see rough edges.
VenerableBede
Adventurer
IMO, no to elites, yes to templates, provided CR conditions are met.
VenerableBede
Adventurer
Also IMO, I think the Elites thing should be mentioned (even though we keep adding to word count) but templates don’t need to be mentioned. Individual Narrators can rule either way if there’s an issue at the table.
Micah Sweet
Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
I'm looking forward to seeing the context under which this is released!
It's scheduled to appear on the Level Up website (for free, as an article) at 2pm GMT tomorrow.
evildmguy
Explorer
In the fwiw category, I do like this. The only change from the base is that, after saying the necromancer uses their ability for good, the process of creating a minion is an unholy ritual?
To expand it, I agree that two paths are needed for this class. One that works with undead, and one that can heal. It seems like those two are exclusive. Then two spell lists for that as well. Or there needs to be a White Necromancer class and this one needs to firmly be on the unholy side of things. Just my two coppers.
To expand it, I agree that two paths are needed for this class. One that works with undead, and one that can heal. It seems like those two are exclusive. Then two spell lists for that as well. Or there needs to be a White Necromancer class and this one needs to firmly be on the unholy side of things. Just my two coppers.
Faolyn
(she/her)
It's a wizard archetype, not a class. A "white necromancer" would be a different archetype.
lichmaster
Adventurer
One small thing I noticed when reading the published description (sorry for being late): is it acceptable that Touch of Death can grant temp HP even if the killed creature is not living or undead (like a construct)?
Also: the CR of the undead created by Create Minion scales with total character level instead of class level. Given that this class is quite front loaded in terms of abilities, this would make a 2 level dip extremely enticing (maybe too much). Shouldn't we restrict the Create Minion scaling to class level instead?
For the rest, this archetype is awesome, especially for multiclassing possibilities: I'm already thinking how to re-create a version of Arthas the Lich King!
Also: the CR of the undead created by Create Minion scales with total character level instead of class level. Given that this class is quite front loaded in terms of abilities, this would make a 2 level dip extremely enticing (maybe too much). Shouldn't we restrict the Create Minion scaling to class level instead?
For the rest, this archetype is awesome, especially for multiclassing possibilities: I'm already thinking how to re-create a version of Arthas the Lich King!
It was intended to be wizard level just like Army of Darkness.
Andvari
Adventurer
Might become rather time-consuming to have one character controlling both themselves and multiple minions in combat. Perhaps one could simulate it by creating a "horde" representing multiple creatures, like a group of skeletons, but acts as a single creature. Depending on its HP, it does less damage per attack. For example, 4d8 damage at full HP and 2d8 at half HP.
Hordes are already in the MoMe. There’s nothing in the archetype stopping you from using them.
Andvari
Adventurer
I comment on 5E things at my own peril as I only own the PHBHordes are already in the MoMe. There’s nothing in the archetype stopping you from using them.
Wrong game!I comment on 5E things at my own peril as I only own the PHB
Similar Threads
Level Up (A5E)
A5E Alternate Artificer (Full Caster Variant)
