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Help me make "CoDzilla"? :)

charleskoz

First Post
I'm an oldtimer who now plays D&D with his family. My eldest son is the DM.

Anyway, while putting together a character I happened to do some reading online and found a thread somewhere that ranked different character classes based on a "tier" system. I was surprised to find druids in the top tier of characters.

I always thought of druids as not being particularly impressive. And my son the DM, when I told him about this, scoffed openly, insisting that druids "sucked" and anyone who thought otherwise didn't know what they were doing.

He's a pretty smart guy and knows D&D pretty well, but I'd like to prove him wrong and learn a thing or two myself. So how do I make an "overpowered" druid build that will impress him? Assume core rules plus the "complete" books so things don't get too esoteric... what should it look like?

Thanks. :)
 

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Go here, read up, come back, ask questions :)

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EDIT: By the way, nice to see someone else making D&D a family affair... Sock it to 'im, dad! :D
 
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Thanks for the replies.

Okay, so I told #1 son the DM about this and he remains defiant. (Big surprise, he's 17. ;) ) We agreed that I would make a level 20 druid and for simplicity, core rules only: just what's in the 3.5 PHB, DMG and MM.

This makes the Druid Handbook and so forth of little use, since most min/maxing seems to take advantage of cheesy stuff in alternate books.

I know wild shape is a key to this class, but I have little idea of what the best things are to wild shape into. Not sure about spells or even where to put feats and ability scores either (other than Natural Spell and high Wis of course.)

So any specific suggestions appreciated. Remember, it's not just me on trial here, it's Internet D&D-dom as a whole. ;)

Thanks again.
 

Hmmm. Only Monster Manual 1? And... are there other party members? If so, who are they and what do they/will they do?

Importantly, is the rest of the campaign restricted to the Corest Three - as in, monsters and NPC's and stuff - or not?
 

Druid 20
Race: Dwarf
Starting Age: Venerable. Timeless Body allows you to ignore the age penalties to your physical scores while retaining the tasty mental boosts.
Feats: Natural Spell, Extend Spell, Quicken Spell, Craft Wondrous Item, Improved Natural Attack, Multiattack.
Wildshape: Shambling Mound (lots of immunities, look under Plant Type). Elementals are also good. Turning into a huge bear or dinosaur is always entertaining.
Spells: Druid Handbook should be good for that. Offhand, look at Wall of Stone, Fire Seeds, Reverse Gravity, Finger of Death, Spellstaff, True Seeing, and Shapechange.

Recommendation: Get an account at BG, start a thread. They will give you some scary advice.
 
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Thanks, I signed up at BG, they are making me wait before I can post, though.

There is no campaign here, it's just going to be some one-off skirmishes as a proof of concept. I'm assuming he'll use the same books I am limited to.

Dandu, you mentioned shambling mound... that's got a CR of 6. If I'm level 20 and I'm changing into something with a CR of 6 am I really gaining much? :) This is the sort of stuff I don't know.

Thanks.
 

Thanks, I signed up at BG, they are making me wait before I can post, though.

There is no campaign here, it's just going to be some one-off skirmishes as a proof of concept. I'm assuming he'll use the same books I am limited to.

Dandu, you mentioned shambling mound... that's got a CR of 6. If I'm level 20 and I'm changing into something with a CR of 6 am I really gaining much? :) This is the sort of stuff I don't know.

Thanks.
Yes. See, you use your own BAB and your own hit dice.

Oh, and incidentally: Are you using the Wildshape Errata (which changes the base from Polymorph to Alternate Form), or not? Makes a big difference.
 

If it's official errata then I assume it is "in".

I guess I'm having a hard time picturing myself as a shambling mound or a dire tiger facing off against CR 15+ monsters that can be truly ... scary. This is obviously due to my own inexperience... but I think part of why my DM son scoffs is thinking about a level 20 character turning into a bear. ;)

What happens to enhancing items like say a Periapt of Wisdowm when you use wild shape?
 

If it's official errata then I assume it is "in".
Then skip the shambling mound - you don't gain the immunities, as you retain your own type. You want to look for things that have lots of natural attacks, lots of Strength/Dex, lots of natural armor, and/or special abilities that are hard to get (like Pounce); try the Dire Tiger and Belker on for size. Oh yes, and don't forget the lowly Rat and Bat, which make useful stealth forms - and also don't forget that you can pick up some skills Cross-class. A Druid with Natural Spell, Spell Focus(Conjouration), Augment Summoning, and Silent Spell can be hilarious if it's got enough cross-class Hide and Move Silently to avoid detection while it keeps pumping out attackers with Silent Summon Nature's Ally VII's. Oh yes, and there's three or four feats unaccounted for in the build. Quicken Spell, Extend Spell, Multiattack, and Power Attack are fairly common choices. For what you're doing, you don't really need Extend Spell.
I guess I'm having a hard time picturing myself as a shambling mound or a dire tiger facing off against CR 15+ monsters that can be truly ... scary. This is obviously due to my own inexperience... but I think part of why my DM son scoffs is thinking about a level 20 character turning into a bear. ;)
Well, the thing is, when you turn into a critter, you're not really turning into that critter. You're turning into yourself in the form of that critter.

See, a Druid-20 that turns into a Dire Tiger....
1) Keeps it's own HP, base saves, BAB, feats, spellcasting, and racial abilities.
2) Gains the Dire Tiger's Strength, Dex, Natural Armor, Natural Attacks, movement modes, Ex Special Attacks, racial bonuses to skills, and racial bonus feats.
3) Keeps any spells it left running.

So when a Dwarf Druid-20 (a very good choice of base race, incidentally) Wildshapes into a Dire Tiger, he's got:
Full Attack: 2 claws +22 melee (2d3+8) (rather than 2d4, as you don't get Improved Natural Attack) and bite +17 (or +20, if you took Multiattack) melee (1d8+4) (rather than 2d6 - again, due to missing Improved Natural Attack)
Charge: 2 claws +24 melee (2d3+8) (rather than 2d4, as you don't get Improved Natural Attack) and bite +19 (or +22, if you took Multiattack) melee (1d8+4) (rather than 2d6 - again, due to missing Improved Natural Attack), and 2 Rakes +21 melee (+24, if you took Multiattack), damage 2d4+4

That's before buffs. If, when you take Dire Tiger form, you use five castings of Greater Magic Fang (you did make use of your Bead of Karma from your Strand of Prayer Beads just before Wildshaping to avoid getting those Dispelled, right?) then those attacks become:

Full Attack: 2 claws +27 melee (2d3+13) and bite +22 (or +25, if you took Multiattack) melee (1d8+9)
Charge: 2 claws +29 melee (2d3+13) and bite +24 (or +27, if you took Multiattack) melee (1d8+9) , and 2 Rakes +26 melee (+29, if you took Multiattack), damage 2d4+9

If you add a Quickened Bull's Strength to that....

Full Attack: 2 claws +29 melee (2d3+15) and bite +24 (or +27, if you took Multiattack) melee (1d8+10)
Charge: 2 claws +31 melee (2d3+15) and bite +26 (or +29, if you took Multiattack) melee (1d8+10) , and 2 Rakes +28 melee (+31, if you took Multiattack), damage 2d4+10

If you also made sure to use your Manual of Strength+5 somewhere along the line, that caps off at:
Full Attack: 2 claws +32 melee (2d3+18) and bite +27 (or +30, if you took Multiattack) melee (1d8+12)
Charge: 2 claws +34 melee (2d3+18) and bite +29 (or +32, if you took Multiattack) melee (1d8+12) , and 2 Rakes +31 melee (+34, if you took Multiattack), damage 2d4+12

A Balor has an AC of 40 and 290 hp. As long as you can survive two or three rounds of hits, he's... pretty much toast. Oh yes, and you can Heal yourself when needed - he can't.
What happens to enhancing items like say a Periapt of Wisdowm when you use wild shape?
With the errata, they go away. Unless you strip down prior to wildshaping, then put them back on. Leadership is useful for that, although not necessary - the Shambler spell, cast once per week, gives you intelligent (well, Int-7) servants that can help you with that kind of thing. Just remember to pack a few copies of Speak With Plants for the purpose every day.

Oh yes, and if you're doing this, some items you'll want non-melded:
Cloak of Resistance+5
Luck Blade (0 Wishes)
Bracers of Armor+8
Periapt of Wisdom+6
Monk's Belt (you can also do a 1-level dip into Monk for most of what this gives you ... but that's not a good idea if you're playing anything that doesn't have Druid as a favored class)
Oh yes, and do make sure to pick up a Manual of +5 Dex, and a Tome of +5 Wis (and you'll STILL have enough left for the Manual of +4 or +5 Con).

With several castings of Barkskin to keep you going through the day, that puts your Dire Tiger AC up to.... 10 base, -1 Size, +11 natural, +8 Armor, about +12 Monkish... so about 40. That's not actually very much at that level (The Balor starts with +33, so needs a 7 to hit you), but it functions as resistance to Power Attack (if he Power Attacks to deal a decent amount of damage, he can't hit you effectively; if he doesn't, it'll take him quite some time to wear through your HP).



Eh, might as well give a bit more of the build....
Stat Priority: Wisdom > Con > Int > Rest (Str, Dex, and Cha are dump stats - and if you have to prioritize, Cha is more valuable than Str or Dex, as Wildshape gives you Str and Dex at semi-arbitrary values)
Skills: Spot and Concentration essential; Cross-class Hide and Move Silently are recommended. Pick others for flavor.
 
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