The reason for it is that it allows Paizo to make new animals, magical beasts, elementals, plant creatures, and so on, without worrying about how each one might overpower the druid. The spells are balanced - mostly, anyway - so it doesn't matter if the animals are. I wouldn't change it back, if I were you, but if you do, prepare for the absolute return of (c)oDzilla.
Help me nerf the druid
- Thread starter Dykstrav
- Start date
Friend of the Dork
First Post
Since I'm only using the animals in 3.5 MM that won't be a problem for me. CoDzilla never happened in my game and was more a scary story from the Optimization forums.
You say the spells are balanced? It seems to me the low-level Beast Shape spells are so bad the only usefulness is getting a different type of speed, scent, etc.
But.. since this system is new for me and my players, I'm inclined to keep it RAW for the time being. Maybe I will change my mind after playtesting, and maybe the druid is powerful enough as it is even with nerfed Wild Shape.
The change basically means that a Druid who wants to excel at physical combat will need to focus on it, instead of being a wicked spellcaster that could suddenly become a monster in melee combat as well with barely any effort.
Most "battle" clerics need to forgo a high Wisdom score and rely on magic items (+6 Wis headband) to cast their highest level spells, in order to have the base combat stats to be an effective melee character.
The same now applies to Druids. Wildshaping gives a slough of utility, and a decent buff package for going melee, but you need to make a base set of stats that is intended for melee combat (Str and Con at least, and probably Dex too).
Oh, and if you get your Animal Companion a +Int item (or take even one level adjustment to ability scores in Int), he can pick any feat at that point and take advantage of the nice new feats out there (and pump any skill either, for that matter).
Pathfinder has some really nice feats too. Like Vital Strike (4d8 bites anyone?)... or Greater Trip (on a wolf no less). Or Greater Grapple on a grabbing animal.
Plus, the simple idea of the creature learning your language so you can forgo the need of tricks or empathy to get your meaning across. It might not be able to speak back, but complicated commands can be shouted across the battlefield.
Most "battle" clerics need to forgo a high Wisdom score and rely on magic items (+6 Wis headband) to cast their highest level spells, in order to have the base combat stats to be an effective melee character.
The same now applies to Druids. Wildshaping gives a slough of utility, and a decent buff package for going melee, but you need to make a base set of stats that is intended for melee combat (Str and Con at least, and probably Dex too).
Oh, and if you get your Animal Companion a +Int item (or take even one level adjustment to ability scores in Int), he can pick any feat at that point and take advantage of the nice new feats out there (and pump any skill either, for that matter).
Pathfinder has some really nice feats too. Like Vital Strike (4d8 bites anyone?)... or Greater Trip (on a wolf no less). Or Greater Grapple on a grabbing animal.
Plus, the simple idea of the creature learning your language so you can forgo the need of tricks or empathy to get your meaning across. It might not be able to speak back, but complicated commands can be shouted across the battlefield.
StreamOfTheSky
Adventurer
Battle Clerics only needed a decent str, dex was a total dump stat ("My class gives me full plate proficiency"), and EVERYONE wanted Con. The cleric buff spells gave them full BAB, large size, and some stat boosts, a 12 or 14 str was perfectly workable and you could still afford a high wis and good con with that.
Druids in 3.5 needed Wis and Con, and some Dex, as getting into a fight out of wildshape is a common possibility and not going last rocks. If you're actually starting at level 1, or below level 6 even, Druids needed respectable Str and Dex to just not be useless for those levels. They weren't much less stat dependent than clerics (divine metamagic abusing clerics need charisma, but am I supposed to feel bad about that?), and definitely no less so than sorcerers and wizards.
Wait...you think wildshape needs nerfing, but don't mind blatantly breaking the rules to let the companion get other feats? Did PF change the definition of what it means to be an "animal"? If an animal has Int 3+, it is no longer an animal, but a magical beast. Which means you'd lose it as your companion just the same as if you cast Awaken on it. You can't give your companion an Int boost. Again, unless PF changed the definition of animal.
Maidhc O Casain
Na Bith Mo Riocht Tá!
From the PFRPG Core Rules, Druid Animal Companion Section (pg 52):
"Skills: This lists the animal’s total skill ranks. Animal companions can assign skill ranks to any skill listed under Animal Skills. If an animal companion increases its Intelligence to 10 or higher, it gains bonus skill ranks as normal. Animal companions with an Intelligence of 3 or higher can purchase ranks in any skill. An animal companion cannot have more ranks in a skill than it has Hit Dice."
StreamOfTheSky
Adventurer
Sure, try RAW first if you want. For my part, I can't help but make some changes to things that really irk me without even trying the RAW first. But I'll also not bother touching wildshape and the polymorph spells at first, whenever i actually run Pathfinder. I have to say from playing in campaigns of it (one very short, other is ongoing), I'm liking the rules changes less and less each week.
[sblock]Just a few weeks ago, our party fought a very powerful sorcerer who clearly was higher level than us. He had buffed his AC to something like 30, which...is hard to hit at level 6 to say the least. He twice put up the Mirror Image spell to make things even more annoying for us. We first thought, "no big deal, either we swing at him or we wipe out an image, since they're easy to hit." Silly us and our rational 3E mindsets where low level figments are easy targets. Check out the 3.5 and Pathfinder versions of that spell. As if higher AC on the images (ven a 25 was very hard for us to manage), notice PF also was nice enough to remove this text: "While moving, you can merge with and split off from figments so that enemies who have learned which image is real are again confounded." See, in a civilized (ie, 3E) game, there are some common sense rules to help deal with the spell. Such as, "you can't move the images until your turn comes up" so that should you get lucky and discover the real target, your party can take advantage of that for a round at least. PF has no such text, so thanks to the ambiguity, it was up to the DM. He figured if they took it out from 3E, then the intent was clear.
Who'd have thought that in their "balancing" of things, Paizo would actually boost Mirror Image, which I don't recall ever being considered a "bad" spell in 3.5...Just one example of the little stuff you don't notice at first until it comes up in game, and then you realize how much worse PF rules are than 3E. And yes, that encounter still pisses me off.[/sblock]
And yet so many people go after Wildshape as the most over powered part of the class...
I agree with you, especially in 3E, being a full caster is the best trait to have, the wildshape just lets you also be a big stupid fighter. And in return for that, Druids had the worst spell list of the 4 prime casters. Awesome for versatility, poor deal if you're after raw power.
AdmundfortGeographer
Getting lost in fantasy maps
Some may.
For me, it is simply that the druid is a character with far more actions per round than any other character.
The accumulation of full caster (that can become an adequate melee-ist), Plus all the actions of an adequate melee-ist pet, plus all the actions of every spontaneously summoned creature.
I know other casters can summon. But being able to do it without having to prep the spell is quite significant.
The first thing I'd try to bring druid down a notch would be to replace the animal companion with speak with animal's at will. Try it for a while, then maybe look at something else.
StreamOfTheSky
Adventurer
But they're not actually getting more actions per turn. Sure, they can fill in for melee, they can cast, they can do some scouting... They're the "Bard of full casters," if you will. But they can't do all of that simultaneously, they don't actually get extra swift or standard actions per turn. ...Not until level 17 and they can turn into a Choker...
In fact, it's the other 3 classes that get the extra actions. Whether it's the Celerity spells, the Arcane Fusion sorcerer spells, the Cleric's Divine Metamagic (Quicken Spell) or Ruby Knight Vindicator PrC (burn turns for extra swift actions)...it's mostly the other three classes getting more actions per turn. Only think Druid gets that I can think of is Planar Shepherd's planar bubble feature when used with a "fast time" plane. But that's setting specific, and so laughably overpowered that I don't think any DM would allow it anyway (by that I mean, I could see some games where some of the other listed things would be allowed, but Planar Shepherd would "cross the line.") Even if it is allowed...the bubble benefits potentially the whole party, so at least the Druid's not breaking the action economy selfishly...
Sorcerers can. The PF Summoner class can too, I think.
The first thing I'd try to bring druid down a notch would be to replace the animal companion with speak with animal's at will. Try it for a while, then maybe look at something else.
Would you also remove the companion from Clerics and Rangers, as both of them get it or can get it now?
BryonD
Hero
I disliked the changes to Wildshape at first.
But I've come to think they were a real improvement.
It may seem simple enough at first that "turning into a bear" == "turning into a bear".
But, by that reasoning, every "being a PC druid" == "being a PC druid".
I now very much like that a STR 8 halfling druid turning into a bear becomes a very different bear than a STR 18 human druid.
And, it really makes sense that there is a cap on the amount of magic mojo that a CLX druid can muster. Another way to do it would be to pit a cap on ability increases and say that you just can not turn into any animal that has a larger STR than your limit. But I think the method selected is better.
The animal you become is not just average, with 6 wildly diverse druids becoming 6 average, typical bears. Each one is a reflection of the druid.
So the flavor is great.
And, outside of flavor, not being able to dumpstat STR and DEX and then just wildshape into melee form is a much better balance position.
But I've come to think they were a real improvement.
It may seem simple enough at first that "turning into a bear" == "turning into a bear".
But, by that reasoning, every "being a PC druid" == "being a PC druid".
I now very much like that a STR 8 halfling druid turning into a bear becomes a very different bear than a STR 18 human druid.
And, it really makes sense that there is a cap on the amount of magic mojo that a CLX druid can muster. Another way to do it would be to pit a cap on ability increases and say that you just can not turn into any animal that has a larger STR than your limit. But I think the method selected is better.
The animal you become is not just average, with 6 wildly diverse druids becoming 6 average, typical bears. Each one is a reflection of the druid.
So the flavor is great.
And, outside of flavor, not being able to dumpstat STR and DEX and then just wildshape into melee form is a much better balance position.
