Help me nerf the druid

[AdmundfortGeographer]

But they're not actually getting more actions per turn.

I'm sorry I wasn't more clear. Excluding the DM, the player of the druid character, has more actions per round than players of other classes.

Would you also remove the companion from Clerics and Rangers, as both of them get it or can get it now?

Converted to speak with animals at will, absolutely.

As one who has seen Leadership abused, I would have that feat removed and converted to some function of "treasure" and intervals of regular Diplomacy checks to keep the cohort around (modified by past actions). Until then I just don't allow it.

 

[Zurai]

I'm sorry I wasn't more clear. Excluding the DM, the player of the druid character, has more actions per round than players of other classes.

Not true at all.

 

[Friend of the Dork]

I disliked the changes to Wildshape at first.

But I've come to think they were a real improvement.

It may seem simple enough at first that "turning into a bear" == "turning into a bear".

But, by that reasoning, every "being a PC druid" == "being a PC druid".

I now very much like that a STR 8 halfling druid turning into a bear becomes a very different bear than a STR 18 human druid.

And, it really makes sense that there is a cap on the amount of magic mojo that a CLX druid can muster. Another way to do it would be to pit a cap on ability increases and say that you just can not turn into any animal that has a larger STR than your limit. But I think the method selected is better.

The animal you become is not just average, with 6 wildly diverse druids becoming 6 average, typical bears. Each one is a reflection of the druid.

So the flavor is great.

And, outside of flavor, not being able to dumpstat STR and DEX and then just wildshape into melee form is a much better balance position.

Now if you actually got the bear's racial modifiers to attributes, that would be very individual bears indeed. Now it's just you +2 str. The halfling will be a puny 10 str bear... ridiculous. You don't really turn into a bear or whatever, you look like one, and get certain traits from it (in this case +2 str, +2 ac and d4 claws....)

 

[BryonD]

Well, this is more a balance side of things than flavor, but at low levels it doesn't make sense to get that big a bump to stats.

You have to be 6th level to go large anyway. And Wildshape at that point gives a +4 to STR. This is on par with Bull's Strength.

The halfling simply doesn't have enough mojo to truly become a bear. But the STR 12 limitation will show that he just ain't all that.

He can CHOOSE to take the shape of a bear, but his starting point, plus the limits of his power just don't have the juice to make a real bear. A bear is a poor choice of form for a STR 8 halfling.

You can just as easily say that it is ridiculous for the little guy to even think he can turn into a bear.

And, again on the balance side, you can say it is ridiculous to get +10 bonus to STR ( a bear's STR mod) at Level 6, when a spell is limited to +4.

 

[Glade Riven]

On the cohorts, companions, and summoning shenanigans...rather than remove them, why not take DM control of them? Then players have to make skill checks, checks that take time, to get them to do what they want (and have a chance to fail completely). Players keep their flavor without getting any extra actions per turn, as these things are handled by the DM.

After all, I haven't seen a rule specifies that these things are under the control of the player.

 

[Friend of the Dork]

Well, this is more a balance side of things than flavor, but at low levels it doesn't make sense to get that big a bump to stats.

You have to be 6th level to go large anyway. And Wildshape at that point gives a +4 to STR. This is on par with Bull's Strength.

The halfling simply doesn't have enough mojo to truly become a bear. But the STR 12 limitation will show that he just ain't all that.

He can CHOOSE to take the shape of a bear, but his starting point, plus the limits of his power just don't have the juice to make a real bear. A bear is a poor choice of form for a STR 8 halfling.

You can just as easily say that it is ridiculous for the little guy to even think he can turn into a bear.

And, again on the balance side, you can say it is ridiculous to get +10 bonus to STR ( a bear's STR mod) at Level 6, when a spell is limited to +4.

So on 6th level you can mimic a 2nd level spell... weee. Ok, it's better than that, but still a bit underwhelming even for a mere buff.

It's just as ridiculous for any human to turn into a Bear (which can be medium sized btw). But this is fantasy, and shape-changing is a staple of D&D. I don't see any reason why a weak PC couldn't become a relatively strong animal.

Black bear str mod is +8... it's alot and shouldn't be available at low levels, but mid level? Sure. After all being in such a form means you have the disadvantages of not being able to speak, cast spells, or use items. And a tough fighter will still be able to beat a 6th level druid in bear form.

Now if you remove any of those limitations: allow animals with magic armor, talking parrots and spell-casting pussycats, then thats when it becomes broken.

 

[Gorbacz]

You don't need animals with magic armor, talking parrots or spell-casting pussycats. At lvl 8, buff yourself up, go Dire Bear and tell the Fighter that he just became a liability.

 

[billd91]

Yup, I hate the PF changes for the same reason. Instead of revamping the monster entries by HD and CR so a creature could only have a certain range of natural armor bonus (say for a certain HD it could have between a +2 and a +6 depending on how "thick hided" and slow it was) and other features like they should have, PF took the easy way out and just made polymorph abilities into some weird transmuation-illusion crossbreed, where you may look like creature x, but you sure as heck don't have his actual physical qualities.

See, from my point of view, that's the wrong direction. That's the 4e direction in which the values for defenses and attacks are pretty much completely contrived and gamist. I'd prefer whipping up an animal to make it the most appropriate fit for D&D concepts rather than an appropriate fit for a certain level of adventurer.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

You don't need animals with magic armor, talking parrots or spell-casting pussycats. At lvl 8, buff yourself up, go Dire Bear and tell the Fighter that he just became a liability.

Man, I just love this kind of Rhetoric! Such insightful and intellectually stimulating debates these are!

/sarcasm

Dude, if you're going to make a wild, unsupported claim loaded with hyperbole, at least have the common decency to get basic facts straight. Dire Bear is 12 HD, a level 8 Druid couldn't turn into one.

And go ahead and turn into a dire bear and lose all your gear for a nice str check, size large (if only there were level 1 potions that let my fighter do THAT!), and some natural armor (to go along with your pathetic touch AC). My Fighter will do just fine with his gear, feats, and full BAB. Not as fine as he'd do if he were a Warblade or whatever, but fine enough...

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

See, from my point of view, that's the wrong direction. That's the 4e direction in which the values for defenses and attacks are pretty much completely contrived and gamist. I'd prefer whipping up an animal to make it the most appropriate fit for D&D concepts rather than an appropriate fit for a certain level of adventurer.

Yeah, I don't want it to be like 4E, where there's a very narrowly defined "range" (by that I mean like how 4E was actually designed for expected attack and defense values at a give level so that they'd have X% chance to hit).

I'm just saying, some sort of hard limits would be nice. It seems sometimes like a monster's HD is completely detached from his attributes. I don't mind ranges depending on the nature of the creature, but there should be some guidelines. If you want a creature with +15 natural armor, say...it can't have only 6 HD. Depending on if it's built like a Rhino or a Vulture it might need a significantly different amount of HD to "qualify" for that much natural armor, but there would still be some sort of system.

Don't know if that explained things any better.