Help me prepare to defeat my fellow PC- the Lich!

[Storme]

Isn't an undead supposed to be devoid of any soul, rendering Trap the Soul useless???

They do have souls. Tormented ones...it's what gives their dead bodies life. That's why an undead person can't be resurrected until they are destroyed.


Anyway...I have another strategy for you, FoxWander. This is a good one, but you'd have to work for it.

Either find (hard) or use wish (easy) and wish for...say...four eyelashes from an Ethereal Doppleganger and cast simulacrum (MMII pg 94). It's a 20hd monster so it'll end up 10 HD, but it will have ALL it's abilities, and none of them are level specific. Have the Ethereal Doppleganger imitate...say...your wife or yourself. It takes an hour and a willing target does not have to make a save. Now that he's got ALL of hers or yours abilites and stats (except HP plus his DR, SR, and fasthealing8), use polymorph any object on him and make him into mosquito (the most stealthful beings in the universe). Now he stays in your pocket as a mosquito with all the powers of your wife's character (or yours).

Okay...now's the tricky part.

You will need for the Ethereal Doppleganger of your wife's character mosquito to make physical contact with him for an hour. That could be done during watches while he's meditating for his spells. While the guy's preoccupied, have the mosquito (cast invis and something to buff his move silently...your artificer can do that (+15) if you have her yet...either that or have the EDoppleganger immitate a high level rogue. Whatever. Have him land on his back between his shoulder blades (D&D never requires TOUCH to be skin to skin) and have him sit there for an hour. When the hour is up, the uber mosquito flies off and back into your pocket. You're ready.

Get alone with him somehow, somewhere (away from his cohort and undead). Then come up with something like this.

"Dude, we need to divide this money I got from selling a scroll. Then hand a money pouch to your wife's character full of gold, and hand a pouch full of gold to him (WITH A TRAP THE SOUL ON IT...NO SAVE...NO SR).

NOW...you'll need to communicate with your DM on this before you do the trap the soul, and hopefully he will cooperate. He doesn't really need to (you can tell him), but it would be better if he did. Dispel the Polymorphed Mosquito, and have the EDoppleganger TURN INTO THE EVIL CHARACTER. What's beautiful about this is...if the DM cooperates, he can just have the guy play the EDoppleganger, never aware that his character has been switched. Then just play the rest of the scenaro, mindful that YOU will have to keep track of the guys damage (even though the player might think HE is) since the EDoppleganger has lower HP than the original BUT has fasthealing8. Just play along with anything the guy does. THEN when he tries to turn on YOU, you and the DM then informs him that he's been a doppleganger all along!

If the DM doesn't cooperate, then offer to let the Evil Character play the EDoppleganger, fully aware of what it is, understanding that he is 100% under your control.

Either way...problem solved, in a very unique and hopefully, non-confrontational way.

This has happened to me (sort of) before. My character had been switched by a doppleganger and I was unaware of it. I played my character normally until we reached the final room with the badguy and on the second round, the DM took control of me and started attacking the group! It was such a shock to everyone that it really was quite fun.


Storme

 

[Maldor]

death ward
read dread necs spell list

 

[FoxWander]

<snip> Ethereal Doppleganger and cast simulacrum <snip>

I must say that this is a wonderfully insidious idea. If it dupes my wife's character, then it will have all the stealth it needs to pull this off. It's a running joke that no one in the party has a high enough Spot check to see her so we must trip over her a lot!

One thing though- the EDopp's assume identity ability takes 1 hour per level of the target. Not really an issue for our situation but a bit different than just a single hour. And the duping would still be essentially foolproof. It requires him failing a DC 22 will save, which he's not like to do right away. But then the EDopp can just use it's mind wipe ability (which has no save) to make him forget it happened, and then try to dupe him again. Eventually it will work.

Another thing- I forget the rules of precedence; the EDopp stat block says fast healing 8 and the text entry says fast healing 3. Anyone remember which it should be? I believe the table takes precedence. Although FH3 sounds more appropriate than FH8, it is a 20HD critter, so... There's no errata for the EDopp and the MM2 3.5 update booklet doesn't have anything either. Just wondering.

Whatever though, it's an awesome idea. Might not be a bad idea to get a Sim EDopp pet just to have around anyway. All kinds of fun uses for that kind of thing!

 

[irdeggman]

Another thing- I forget the rules of precedence; the EDopp stat block says fast healing 8 and the text entry says fast healing 3. Anyone remember which it should be? I believe the table takes precedence. Although FH3 sounds more appropriate than FH8, it is a 20HD critter, so... There's no errata for the EDopp and the MM2 3.5 update booklet doesn't have anything either. Just wondering.

From the errata (pick one of them) - it is WotC's stance on order of precedence:

When the text within a product contradicts itself, our general policy is
that the primary source (actual rules text) is correct and any secondary
reference (such as a table or character's statistics block) is incorrect. Exceptions to the rule will be called out specifically.

 

[czak808]

IIRC, if he already has Corpse Creature template and is undead, he cannot become a lich. As lich template (and the Dread Necromancer's class ability) is only applied to humanoid creatures.

If this is true, please explain Draco-liches & beholder-liches...

 

[Shin Okada]

If this is true, please explain Draco-liches & beholder-liches...

Actually, there is a separate, completely different "dracolich" template for draons (In Farune related supplements and in Draconomicon). And Alhoon (illithilich) has rule mentioning about applying lich template to Mind Flayers as an exception (Lords of Madness). Regaring Beholder Lich, I guess that is a new monster made for DDM or some newer supplement, as DDM stats card does not have mentioning which supplement support it. But may be some Farune or Underdark related supplement has special template for it. (And it seems that that the template can only be applied to beholder mage, as the mini lacks the central eye).

Anyway, both Dread Necromancer's class ability and Lich Template in MM clearly state that lich template is only applied to Humanoids.

 

[czak808]

You RAW lawyers crack me up. You're quick to point out how things apply, and in the same breath acknowledge the variances to previous writings. Or to modify writings in a biased way to promote your conditions, usually to stymie the creative thoughts of players that you can't reasonably object.

Iterative writings changed the application of the lich template to apply to other creatures. Because they only wrote up dragons and Illithids, does that mean it can't apply to other creatures? Or, by this example, does it mean that templates can be applied to many differing creatures?

A template is a conditional application to an existing creature (MM pg 291); you can't have a plain lich, skeleton, dire or lycanthrope. It requires a base creature. The alignment in the lich description says neutral evil, not "usually". Does that mean a lich must be neutral evil? What about the good liches ala Monsters fo Faerun?

The only reasonable limitations to character concepts is maturity. The players and DM should
recognize an unbalanced, and therefore, un-fun situation. Whether that happens at conception or during play, it should be realized and dealt with. You cannot "rule" out every potential unfair concept.

 

[Meeki]

I agree talking to him and the dm about this situation is the best way to go. If he wants to continue playing why not become NE and take him out while he sleeps

Anyways, as far as tactics go deathward, as was mentioned before, and anti-magic field will make him near helpless. Finding a solar to help would be a benefit too

 

[Shin Okada]

Iterative writings changed the application of the lich template to apply to other creatures. Because they only wrote up dragons and Illithids, does that mean it can't apply to other creatures? Or, by this example, does it mean that templates can be applied to many differing creatures?

Actually, Dracolich is not just a dragon which became a lich. They have a lot different mechanism on how they are created (yes, they usually need other people's aid) and how t's phylactery and reviving works. So this is not an example of the application of lich template.

In case of Illithilich. They are like the description of new spells or invocations, or spell-like abilities. You often see the descriptions like "This invocation works just like xxx spell, but..." type of explanations. Illithilich (Alhoon) is just like that. That is a new monster. But because it is similar to lich, it is using lich's description as part of it.

Those two monsters does not change the rules in MM nor example of the said template actually applied to non-humanoid.

A template is a conditional application to an existing creature (MM pg 291); you can't have a plain lich, skeleton, dire or lycanthrope. It requires a base creature. The alignment in the lich description says neutral evil, not "usually". Does that mean a lich must be neutral evil? What about the good liches ala Monsters fo Faerun?

I guess it meant to be "always any evil" but even "always" version have some exceptions. There are evil (fallen) angels.

But the explanation of the template says "The process of becoming a lich is unspeakably evil and can be undertaken only by a willing character. So, by default, if some non-evil character announces to become a lich, Most DM will announce that his alignment will change to evil. So basically, non-evil liches are very rare.

Regarding those "good lich" thing, that is a Farune specific setting. And that was not a smart way of allowing "eternal guardian" in DnD world. Ebberron has the idea of "undying" which fits much well with basic DnD mechanism (Undeads are Evil).

The only reasonable limitations to character concepts is maturity. The players and DM should recognize an unbalanced, and therefore, un-fun situation. Whether that happens at conception or during play, it should be realized and dealt with. You cannot "rule" out every potential unfair concept.

I can't see any "unbalanced" concept here. Both lich template and True Necromancer class's description clearly says only humanoids can become lich by this method. Still, races of other classes can take the Dread Necro class and get their benefits, except for the final transmutation to the lich. What is wrong with it?

 

[Elethiomel]

I can't see any "unbalanced" concept here. Both lich template and True Necromancer class's description clearly says only humanoids can become lich by this method. Still, races of other classes can take the Dread Necro class and get their benefits, except for the final transmutation to the lich. What is wrong with it?

There's nothing wrong with it. There's nothing inherently right with it either. Yes, by RAW, only humanoids can have the lich template applied to them. No, this isn't the only way to run your game. I have happily applied the lich template to an awakened monkey wizard. I had no regrets doing so. I knew it wasn't RAW, but I didn't particularly care that I was breaking the "creature type" rule, as it made for a cool (and inherently comical) villain.

That said, even if only evil creatures can become liches, who's to say those who have become liches can't change their outlook on life after having become a monstrous undead creature?