Help me thwart my DM and save our life! Wand usage...

[kreynolds]

When a DM creates anything for their campaign, they should use the full weight of their imagination, in my view, not follow rules that are designed for player characters. Neither NPCs nor items created for a DM’s campaign should be thought of as limited by those rules, to me.

Oh, I completely agree that the DM should use his imagination, but that doesn't make it ok. I run several games, both solo and otherwise, and I have never found the need to use a Chaingun of Magic Missile against a party of 8th level characters simply because they went left when I wanted them to go right.

Hey, I kinda like that example, so I'll use that. If I expect my players to go right, but they go left, what do I do? Improvise. Do I use a Chaingun of Magic Missile to do it? No. I use my imagination. First and foremost, did I think ahead, accept the possibility that they would go left? Let's assume I didn't. Now when they go left, its my job to create the world on that side. Sure, its a wrench tossed into the works, but it doesn't mean that I should gun 'em down for it. Hell, its fun for me. Keeps me on my toes.

Furthermore, and this is very important, when you players go left and you wanted them to go right, you need to ask yourself why they made that choice. Perhaps you didn't drop enough hooks or clues. Perhaps they got bored. Perhaps they're tired of the crappy uber-munchkinized rule-0 NPCs you keep throwing at them, so they might hope that by skipping this adventure, they'll get to a good one. Perhaps someone didn't take very good notes. Perhaps they misinterpreted a quickly scetched map of their own. Many possiblites, none of which, however, deserve a Chaingun of Magic Missile.

It is actually a new concept to me that people regard this topic in a different light; quite an eye-opener. To the extent that many responses here and in other threads recommend attacking the DM, verbally or physically! I assume those are not literal, but just expressing strong feelings on the issue, but it is still a big surprise to me that players would be upset at a DM for keeping things fresh and different.

I'm sure that most of the aggressive responses are merely a matter of posturing, but I do indeed think that it displays the extent of how strongly people feel about this.

I understand that in this case, it is also dangerous, but I am suggesting that the broader fact that it is a new and different challenge at least be taken into account.

Dangerous is ok. I understand danger. I like danger. My players don't get it easy. Not at all. At the same time, however, neither do they make it easy for my NPCs. But this isn't a matter of danger. Its a matter of a poor choice on the DMs part, a matter of railroading. If I want a railroad game, I'll go read a "Choose Your Own Path" adventure book.

The Chaingun of Magic Missile is certainly new, and its most certainly a challenge, but it is in no way innovative and it is in no way fun, as is evident by the first post in this thread.

There are some good suggestions on handling the power of this opponent above. Or, possibly, your group can’t defeat them. Having people in the world more powerful than yourself is pretty normal.

How many people have a Chaingun of Magic Missile? None. Not even the gods. Why? They don't need them. Why? D&D isn't about railroading. Look at all those adventure modules in Dungeon Magazine and the like. Nearly every one of them has a small section at the very beginning titled "Plot Hooks" or something similar. This small section is about one thing, hooking your PCs, and they tend to give at least two or three examples every time. Why? Because D&D isn't about railroading. Its about a fantastic world with heroes and villians, monsters and magic. If the definition of a fantastic world is one with no choices to be made on the players' parts, no options before you except the sole option given by the DM, then count me out.

Is this worse because they have a new magic item than if they were an exact PC-type character with several of the more deadly items in the DMG? I don’t see the difference at all, myself.

I dare you to find a combination of magic items, sticking with the character wealth by level guidelines, both of which are in the DMG, equivalent to a Chaingun of Magic Missile.

Unless it is this determination to bind the DM with the rules that exist only to standardize player characters. They are not there to standardize other people in the world, in my view, but I do see that that is more and more the tendency in products.

Its not necessarily about standardization. Its about CR and EL, both of which are covered in the DMG. Again, epic level magic item vs. an 8th level party. Something's wrong there.

Having a right to expect physics in the game world to remain consistent is I think pretty reasonable (with room for exceptions), but expecting that all magic will adhere to the options available to PCS seems like it would terribly limit the degree of imagination in the game, to me.

Can you justify the use of a Chaingun of Magic Missile against an 8th level party? I don't see this as a matter of creativity. I see this as a matter of a lack thereof.

Sometimes liberal use of their imagination by the DM will benefit the players, sometimes their opponents- but the game would be awfully repetitive and dull if the DM did not have freedom to apply their ideas.

What I find dull, terribly so, is...

This is a dramatization.

DM: "In the dungeon, you come to a T-junction. At both ends stand two wooden doors. What do you do?"
Player: "I go left at the T-junction."
DM: "It's locked."
Player: "Pick it." *rolls and gets a total of 39 to open lock*
DM: "You fail."
Player: "On a 39? Ok. Bash it." *hits and deals 187 points of damage on the door*
DM: "You don't even scrath it."
Player: "A wooden door!?!"
DM: "No, its magically hardened adamantine and protected by a wall of force that is impervious to all magic."

...worse is if the player somehow gets it open. What's he find? An NPC with a Chaingun of Magic Missile that says "Turn around and go the other way."

If the DM’s rule explanation for this magic item seems weak, maybe remember that they don’t really have to have one at all.

Why not? Player's do. Besides, this DM isn't merely denying an explination as to how a magic item works, but he's even going so far as to take away any options the players have. He's taking away their choices.

The fact that a PC can’t duplicate something does not mean that it can’t exist.

Would you let the PC have a Chaingun of Magic Missile? If not, then it doesn't need to be there yet.

Focus on in-game thinking instead- it is a new powerful magic item, not a real surprise in a world that has plenty of such things.

Seriously, and I'm not joking, my in-game thinking would be something along the lines of "This sucks." YMMV

 

[Pax]

When a DM creates anything for their campaign, they should use the full weight of their imagination, in my view, not follow rules that are designed for player characters.

The entire concept of 3E is -- PC or NPC, Human or Hill Giant, they're all characters, built with the same general rules as each other.

To do otherwise betrays the spirit and intent of 3E.

To the extent that many responses here and in other threads recommend attacking the DM, verbally or physically! I assume those are not literal, but just expressing strong feelings on the issue, but it is still a big surprise to me that players would be upset at a DM for keeping things fresh and different. I understand that in this case, it is also dangerous, but I am suggesting that the broader fact that it is a new and different challenge at least be taken into account.

There's a difference between "keeping things fresh and different" and "parade of godlike NPC's" ... which is what this "tape 5 wands together" nonsense really is.

There are some good suggestions on handling the power of this opponent above. Or, possibly, your group can’t defeat them. Having people in the world more powerful than yourself is pretty normal.

I'd rather have people who were more powerful than me within the rules, than people who were more powerful than me because the GM is a cheating munchin.

Is this worse because they have a new magic item

Five wants taped together isn't a new magic item. I's a clear abuse and violation of the rules for activating wands.

than if they were an exact PC-type character with several of the more deadly items in the DMG? I don’t see the difference at all, myself.

Fine, my Wizard does the same thing -- makes 5 wands ... No, TEN wands ... of Maximised Magic Missile. All with the same command word.

Then I tape them together.

Unless it is this determination to bind the DM with the rules that exist only to standardize player characters. They are not there to standardize other people in the world, in my view,

Sorry but your view is plain wrong here. Why else HAVE NPC classes, hmm?

but I do see that that is more and more the tendency in products. Really an unfortunate approach to playing an imaginative game, I think. Having a right to expect physics in the game world to remain consistent is I think pretty reasonable (with room for exceptions), but expecting that all magic will adhere to the options available to PCS seems like it would terribly limit the degree of imagination in the game, to me. Sometimes liberal use of their imagination by the DM will benefit the players, sometimes their opponents- but the game would be awfully repetitive and dull if the DM did not have freedom to apply their ideas.

It's very simple: what's good for the goose, is good for the gander. If an NPC can do it, then eventually a PC can, too.

 

[DreamChaser]

its funny. the parable (if you can call it that) that has been the description of RPG for as long as I can remember is that it is rules set up to resolve the "bang-bang: I got you/no you didn't" arguement in a standard revised way.

Anyone can sit around and tell a story.
Any group of people can collaborate to make a story but it either requires deliberation or standarization.

This situation is neither.

I agree with everyone who says that the characters should keep letting UBERLAME kill them. over and over until Mr. Push the Little Guys around gets the hint that his "imaginitive" (I use that description with nothing but sarcasm) gaming is not fun for anyone except him.

And really, what the **** is the point of gaming if you're not having fun.

DC

 

[Magic Rub]

Option #1
1. GET BIG STICK!
2. Speak softly
3. Hit your DM with the big stick once
4. Tell him to read the DMG & PHB
5. Repeat steps 3 - 5 untill he reads & understands DMG & PHB

Option #2
Refuse to take more than 1 wands worth of damage. Just don't count the rest, forget about it all together. If he makes a fuss replace him, or follow option #1 out-line.

Option #3
Dance!

 

[Trine]

kreynolds' great post

I think that sums up pretty much all of my feelings on the topic.

Why bother with rules at all in that case? If you want to make a more powerful adversary, give him more levels. Don't just slap an extremely arbitrary item onto the NPC's sheet and say you're "challenging" them.

Try challenging yourself and coming up with something that won't leave the players feeling like they were cheated.

 

[Pielorinho]

Out of curiosity, Tsyr, would you have been upset if your DM hadn't told you how this megawand worked in game terms? That is, if he'd let you think that this was a powerful, 50-magic-missile-per-round-shooting artifact, would you have been as upset?

Because creating a new magic item that shoots 50 MM/round is perfectly legit (although not necessarily a good idea, storywise or balancewise). I'd say the real problems here are:

1) The DM is letting you look behind the proverbial screen, where you can see that he's using the wrong set of rules to create a legitimate item; and
2) He's using this item in a railroading fashion.

My suggestion would be to give him feedback. "Thanks for the session, Joe! The fight against the hydra rocked nads! But I was feeling kind of frustrated when SuperNPC showed up with the Wand O' Death -- I kinda felt like you were preventing us from choosing our own path in the adventure. I really like playing in games where I feel free to choose my own destiny."

Daniel

 

[Hypersmurf]

"Thanks for the session, Joe! The fight against the hydra rocked nads!"

Well, naturally... hydras out-cool anything in the Monster Manual, with the possible exception of Ethereal Filchers

(Ah, Ethereal Filchers...)

However, the Monster Manual 2 introduced some serious competition in the form of Nimblewrights and Gambols...

-Hyp.

 

[andargor]

Well, naturally... hydras out-cool anything in the Monster Manual, with the possible exception of Ethereal Filchers

(Ah, Ethereal Filchers...)

However, the Monster Manual 2 introduced some serious competition in the form of Nimblewrights and Gambols...

-Hyp.

Naw. A Half-Black Dragon Pryrohydra with a MMCG strapped to his back.

Ok, throw in a few Quaal's Token: Tree for flavor...

Andargor

 

[HeavyG]

Naw. A Half-Black Dragon Pryrohydra with a MMCG strapped to his back.

Ok, throw in a few Quaal's Token: Tree for flavor...

So, a Half-Black Dragon Pyrohydra with a Magic missile chain gun (with underbarrel Quaal's Feather Token launcher) strapped to his back ?

Make it Pseudonatural and I'm all set.

 

[Hypersmurf]

... (with underbarrel Quaal's Feather Token launcher)...

I had some Dryads provide my PCs with half a dozen QFT:Ts in the form of acorns (it seemed appropriate).

One thing I didn't take into account is that acorns tend to travel somewhat further than feathers.

They've been very frugal with them, but the halfling took great delight in the opportunity she had to launch one with her sling...

-Hyp.