Help Me Understand the GURPS Design Perspective

[lordabdul]

i agree that it can be, but if we’re talking about a mechanic whereby a hyper-skilled but otherwise mundane character- IOW, a Batman, not a Longshot- can thwart a “trillion mph” punch, that’s a system I personally wouldn’t want to be playing.

Sounds more like rejecting the premise than rejecting the system to me. The story always comes first, and the mechanics are only there to support that and add a little randomness and fun. If, in terms of narrative, you want Batman to be able to dodge/block/whatever Superman's punch, you come up with a rationalization of that. In the comics it might be a "wtf, how did he do that??!" moment, followed by a flashback where you see Batman preparing for that eventuality, and using some BatPlotDevice gear that uses kryptonite to weaken and slow down the punch at the last millisecond, enough for him to dodge, or maybe Batman turns out to have been a hologram for the whole scene, or whatever.

Now, assuming you wouldn't reject the rationalization presented in the comics (which is possible... I mean, comics often have very dumb and implausible plot twists, so it's ok to say "this is naughty word, I don't want to read this"), then the key is to figure out how to represent that in terms of mechanics. If you're OK with "flashback mechanics" like the Preparedness rolls in Gumshoe, you can have Batman roll for that, retroactively declare that yeah they have the BatPlotDevice, spend some extra points, and that takes whatever numbers aways from Superman's roll, maybe enough to indeed survive the attack. In something like HeroQuest or FATE or SavageWorlds you might spend some HP/FP/bennies to do that, but you would also have to work with the GM to justify what's going on (i.e: BatPlotDevice, hologram, or something else)... it's not like a free ride where you get to change the story without explaining how in the context of that story. Just saying "I spend the points and I dodge it" is not OK.

There are plenty ways to go about it depending on the system. My point is that the mechanics are irrelevant at first though -- the question is whether that story is OK or not. If it is, the GM will figure out the rules to make it happen.

 

[aramis erak]

Sounds more like rejecting the premise than rejecting the system to me. The story always comes first, and the mechanics are only there to support that and add a little randomness and fun. If, in terms of narrative, you want Batman to be able to dodge/block/whatever Superman's punch, you come up with a rationalization of that. In the comics it might be a "wtf, how did he do that??!" moment, followed by a flashback where you see Batman preparing for that eventuality, and using some BatPlotDevice gear that uses kryptonite to weaken and slow down the punch at the last millisecond, enough for him to dodge, or maybe Batman turns out to have been a hologram for the whole scene, or whatever.

Now, assuming you wouldn't reject the rationalization presented in the comics (which is possible... I mean, comics often have very dumb and implausible plot twists, so it's ok to say "this is naughty word, I don't want to read this"), then the key is to figure out how to represent that in terms of mechanics. If you're OK with "flashback mechanics" like the Preparedness rolls in Gumshoe, you can have Batman roll for that, retroactively declare that yeah they have the BatPlotDevice, spend some extra points, and that takes whatever numbers aways from Superman's roll, maybe enough to indeed survive the attack. In something like HeroQuest or FATE or SavageWorlds you might spend some HP/FP/bennies to do that, but you would also have to work with the GM to justify what's going on (i.e: BatPlotDevice, hologram, or something else)... it's not like a free ride where you get to change the story without explaining how in the context of that story. Just saying "I spend the points and I dodge it" is not OK.

There are plenty ways to go about it depending on the system. My point is that the mechanics are irrelevant at first though -- the question is whether that story is OK or not. If it is, the GM will figure out the rules to make it happen.

Flashbacks are not handled in GURPS rules ... but they are stock in several other superhero games just fine. And GURPS GM's have been known to use them.
Cortex Plus (either MHRP or Smallville), the BatMacguffin is a plot point spend and an instant d6 item, or a plot point for the flashback and single roll to create a different rated device.
In Hero System, Bat's got a gadget pool, and the narration determines which skill roll he's making to allocate the gadget. All of which are OAFs once created.
Fate, a fatepoint for a flashback to create a temporary aspect is in at least a couple flavors, so not out of the question.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Sounds more like rejecting the premise than rejecting the system to me. The story always comes first, and the mechanics are only there to support that and add a little randomness and fun. If, in terms of narrative, you want Batman to be able to dodge/block/whatever Superman's punch, you come up with a rationalization of that. In the comics it might be a "wtf, how did he do that??!" moment, followed by a flashback where you see Batman preparing for that eventuality, and using some BatPlotDevice gear that uses kryptonite to weaken and slow down the punch at the last millisecond, enough for him to dodge, or maybe Batman turns out to have been a hologram for the whole scene, or whatever.

Now, assuming you wouldn't reject the rationalization presented in the comics (which is possible... I mean, comics often have very dumb and implausible plot twists, so it's ok to say "this is naughty word, I don't want to read this"), then the key is to figure out how to represent that in terms of mechanics. If you're OK with "flashback mechanics" like the Preparedness rolls in Gumshoe, you can have Batman roll for that, retroactively declare that yeah they have the BatPlotDevice, spend some extra points, and that takes whatever numbers aways from Superman's roll, maybe enough to indeed survive the attack. In something like HeroQuest or FATE or SavageWorlds you might spend some HP/FP/bennies to do that, but you would also have to work with the GM to justify what's going on (i.e: BatPlotDevice, hologram, or something else)... it's not like a free ride where you get to change the story without explaining how in the context of that story. Just saying "I spend the points and I dodge it" is not OK.

There are plenty ways to go about it depending on the system. My point is that the mechanics are irrelevant at first though -- the question is whether that story is OK or not. If it is, the GM will figure out the rules to make it happen.

I have been using flashbacks more and more to explain rolls that just can't easily be explained by moving the scene forward another step.

It started with a caper adventure, where we jumped right into the action, and then went back and asked, "what was the backup plan, or bait and switch, or other planning stage device, that is going to change this scene back to your favor?" I used Inspiration to help control the flashback frequency, and gave everyone a free Inspiration at the start of each of the 3 Acts of the adventure.

the best one was when the wizard rolled a 2 on his Arcana check to hack into the security system of the vault where 1 of the mcguffins was kept, in order to allow the bard to walk out with his box that contained the real nonagon, while the fake nonagon was sitting in the lock box that had held the real one.

Someone used their Inspiration to flash back, and we established that him failing the check was actually part of the plan. See, he'd enchanted the fake nonagon to implant code into a rebooting security system when it scanned all contents of the vault, switching the ID markers of the two lock boxes so that the bard's lockbox wouldn't read as containing the wrong goods upon exiting the vault. He had to trigger the alarm in a specific way, by "failing" to hack it, so that the system would need to be reset, and booted up from scratch.

A new arcana check with advantage told us how well the device worked, he hit some high number, and the caper continued.

The entire idea of needing to reset the magical security system was invented as part of the flash back, as the players recalled their planning around the table before the caper. The effect was that it mirrored the sort of voice over dialogue about "the plan" you see in a caper movie or TV episode, where we are jumping back and forth between the action, and the planning stage.

Such a mechanic formalised would be perfect for a Batman character.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

If, in terms of narrative, you want Batman to be able to dodge/block/whatever Superman's punch, you come up with a rationalization of that. In the comics it might be a "wtf, how did he do that??!" moment, followed by a flashback where you see Batman preparing for that eventuality, and using some BatPlotDevice gear that uses kryptonite to weaken and slow down the punch at the last millisecond, enough for him to dodge, or maybe Batman turns out to have been a hologram for the whole scene, or whatever.

That’s all well & good in comics (where the writers have a month to figure things out), or even as DM fiat. But if a PC’s game mechanic makes the GM have to figure out how to make this happen, that’s unanticipated work on the fly for the person on the other side of the screen.

“It was a hologram!”
“Then how was he busting skulls on thugs the second before?”
”Ummmmm...it was a solid-light hologram?”
”How long has he had solid-light holograms, and why doesn’t he use those 100% of the time?”
”Ummmmmm...”

Kryptonite zaps Supes’ powers, but doesn’t stop momentum.* Superheroic physics are wonky, but they’re not Coyote vs Roadrunner wonky.**

And if Superman is indeed capable of attacking in attoseconds*, that’s faster than an electrical signal can travel the circuitry of a BatDevice- the attack would be completed before the device could trigger.




* I love superhero comics, but sometimes the writers put things in print that are just...super problematic. See also Spider-Man being able to walk in walls due to static electricity, or soloing Firelord.

** Welllllll...not usually. See assorted superheroes saving not splatting people falling at terminal velocity. See as counterpoint The Autocar from Automan- a holographic Lambourghini Coutache LP400 capable of making 90-degree turns without losing control and overtaking merely by strafing, rather than turning. However, human passengers not properly secured in their seats would often be thrown around inside with the momentum from the sudden position change.

 

[lordabdul]

But if a PC’s game mechanic makes the GM have to figure out how to make this happen, that’s unanticipated work on the fly for the person on the other side of the screen.

I'd like to think I would be able to pull it off as a GM. But if I couldn't, again, that would be premise rejection, not a game system problem. "In this game/world, Batman is really just a human, and no amount of training or gadgetry will make him able to face Superman. Since Chad is playing Superman already, I'd recommend you all set your sights on playing Green Lantern or Wonderwoman or someone else that isn't weak".

It's the same with time travel, for instance. Many GMs avoid it because it's really really hard to pull off. Games like Timewatch go with a system that actually embraces paradoxes, so that it's a lot easier to play, but I know even people who don't want to play that (it's sad... Timewatch is super fun once you embrace the premise). And that's totally fine! I mean, GMing even a normal fantasy campaign is already a lot of work.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

"In this game/world, Batman is really just a human, and no amount of training or gadgetry will make him able to face Superman. Since Chad is playing Superman already, I'd recommend you all set your sights on playing Green Lantern or Wonderwoman or someone else that isn't weak".

i would never tell that to my players in any genre of RPG. Part of the Art of GMing is balancing adventures for all.

Besides, that quoted section is simply a straw man position no one is advocating:

1) Superman may be very capable, but he isn’t GOD. He has limitations, he can’t do everything simultaneously. Even he has to decide what to do and when, which is why you have allies.

2) as noted, if Batman plans properly, he can definitely take down all kinds of foes, including those as powerful as Supes.

 

[lordabdul]

2) as noted, if Batman plans properly, he can definitely take down all kinds of foes, including those as powerful as Supes.

My understanding from your post was that the whole concept of Batman as a character in a world where he might fight Superman was putting too much work on the GM's shoulders to make it work. Apologies if I didn't understand that correctly, but then maybe that means I didn't understand your point at all.

 

[macd21]

i would never tell that to my players in any genre of RPG. Part of the Art of GMing is balancing adventures for all.

Besides, that quoted section is simply a straw man position no one is advocating:

1) Superman may be very capable, but he isn’t GOD. He has limitations, he can’t do everything simultaneously. Even he has to decide what to do and when, which is why you have allies.

2) as noted, if Batman plans properly, he can definitely take down all kinds of foes, including those as powerful as Supes.

And with regard to 2), that’s something that plot points can be used to represent.

 

[John Dallman]

And I don't know if it's the system (GURPS 3e), the campaign (a supers setting riffed directly from Brandon Sanderson's Reckoners novels), … supers is my least favorite speculative fiction genre by a country mile ...

It is worth mentioning that the super-power mechanics of GURPS 3e were ripped out and completely replaced in GURPS 4e. I don't know how well they work for high-powered four-colour supers because I've never tried playing that under any edition of GURPS. The 4e mechanics work well for psionics, magical abilities that aren't spellcasting, and the like.

 

[dbm]

You can also have variable power pools and ‘gizmo’ gadgets. Flexible and adaptive powers can be had in GURPS.

To be sure, the Supers genre pushes GURPS hard, and you need to apply quite a few optional rules to make it work. Other systems are a more natural fit, but if you aren’t playing Supers every game and still want to mainly stick to one system then GURPS can cover you.

To the original question, GURPS core premise is to assume physics and then say ‘if this can happen in game, what is the logical extension of it’. Typically, a person strong enough to lift a tank could punch through a wall, though they might smash their hand at the same time (strong <> tough, unless you want it to).

The benefit of this is that you can extrapolate to figure out niche scenarios that matter to you, but may not matter to everyone else (perhaps no one out side your table). This allows you to implement the specific game of your choice, be that a completely home-brewed world or an adaption of a book etc.

Traditionally, the downside of this has been that the GM needs to make huge amounts of material to implement their vision. This is less and less the case. There are ever more assets available to help quickly implement popular genres like dungeon fantasy, modern action, urban fantasy, post-apocalyptic and steampunk. These can give you a 75-80% solution for you to tailor. With the right group of players the creation work can be shared around, too.